4 ms·

The following is not legal advice, it's just my opinion. DYOR, check with a lawyer, etc. "Do you want to relocate or resign?" is a false dichotomy. You can a

by csense 1y ago

The following is not legal advice, it's just my opinion. DYOR, check with a lawyer, etc. "Do you want to relocate or resign?" is a false dichotomy. You can always just refuse to answer (possibly with soft words like ""I'm not sure" or "I haven't decided yet") -- keep doing your job, and wait until the company lets you go. I'm pretty sure, if a company moves its operations and your job no longer exists in the same location, you're entitled to unemployment benefits -- but not if you resign. The "Relocate or resign" phrasing seems to be trying to trick the affected employees into giving up their rights to unemployment benefits.

toomuchtodo 1y ago
Indeed, talk to an employment attorney to maximize your outcome. You gain nothing by resigning, it’s a ploy to absolve them of any separation cost or potential legal claims (constructive dismissal, refusal to provide ADA accommodations, etc).
JJMcJ 1y ago
Usually if the worksite moves more than some distance, usually +/- 50 miles, you can claim UI if you don't relocate.
- delfinom 1y ago
  Yes but the employer must first fire you for refusing to relocate. Hence _dont resign_. Some companies try and cheat employees illegally by not only telling you one of two options but also tell you that no response is "voluntary resignation". The correct answer is speak to an employment lawyer, but it's usually as simple as you draft a letter that says "I do not accept the relocation and I AM NOT resigning".
guywithahat 1y ago
I'm also not a lawyer, but wouldn't getting fired for not showing up to work be for-cause, thus excluding you from unemployment benefits? My understanding (which isn't clarified in the article) is these employees weren't hired to be remove, they were hired at an office.
- ako 1y ago
  Changing working location could be a contract change, and (at least in the netherlands), employees cant be forced to accept contract changes or resign.
  - 0cf8612b2e1e 1y ago
    Even in the USA, changing work location seems like constructive dismissal.
    - kcplate 1y ago
      It really depends on what your employment agreement says. If it specifically stipulates that your position is “remote” and your company decides to change that, you could argue that your agreement would need to be renegotiated and their breaking of the contract would entitle you to whatever remedies are in the contract for you when that happens. Hopefully you have a remedy beyond “you stop working for us and we stop paying you”. My guess is that most larger company agreements post-Covid will have a clause that defines that they have the ability to determine the employee’s work location with at-will covering the employee’s option. If you think about it—historically, an organization could move its office and most employees did not have a final say in the location. Companies might try to find locations in a workable proximity for most employees, and relocation help options if it’s a bigger move. However, generally it was if it didn’t work for you…you found a new job. Covid and remote work changed the dynamics a bit, but with the state of tech employment levels today technology pros may not have much flexibility to push back.
      - 0cf8612b2e1e 1y ago
        Given the mad max employment law, I am just hoping (?) that there are some restrictions on this. Otherwise, why would a company ever do layoffs? Just have an employment clause that you can be relocated at any time. “Yeah, next week we are going to need you to be at work in the Alaska office. Following week, your butt needs to be in Florida. Failure to comply is an instant termination “
ecshafer 1y ago
Unemployment benefits are not that good. You are better off not answering, then coming down to it, say YES I will move. And spend that 90 days looking for a new job.
devoutsalsa 1y ago
Whenever you're applying for unemployment benefits, just give "position eliminated" as the reason. It doesn't ask who eliminated it.
reverendsteveii 1y ago
What you're talking about is called constructive dismissal, which is when rather than firing you an employer changes the nature of your job to make it impossible or intolerable to fulfill, waits for you to either quit or fail to meet the new conditions and get fired for cause, then can avoid paying unemployment. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constructive_dismissal#United_States_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constructive_dismissal#United_...
- xtiansimon 1y ago
  > “…then can avoid paying unemployment.” I don’t think this is true. Failure to meet your firm’s work standards is not disqualifying. I think it has to be criminal behavior, such as theft. And voluntary leaving a job.
  - reverendsteveii 1y ago
    Failure to meet work standards isn't disqualifying but changes to time and location like that aren't written up as failure to meet standards, they're written up as job abandonment, which itself is considered a type of voluntary resignation and is therefore disqualifying. The law differentiates between showing up but being bad at the job and not showing up at all, and constructive dismissal laws exist to prevent employers from manufacturing job abandonment in order to disqualify an employee. One thing I learned in researching this is that constructive dismissal only applies where the employee has resigned rather than being terminated. It's not a non-voluntary resignation, it's a voluntary resignation that is coerced and is therefore an exception to the unemployment laws that would normally disqualify you for resigning voluntarily.
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]

by csense 1y ago

toomuchtodo 1y ago

Indeed, talk to an employment attorney to maximize your outcome. You gain nothing by resigning, it’s a ploy to absolve them of any separation cost or potential legal claims (constructive dismissal, refusal to provide ADA accommodations, etc).

JJMcJ 1y ago

Usually if the worksite moves more than some distance, usually +/- 50 miles, you can claim UI if you don't relocate.

delfinom 1y ago
Yes but the employer must first fire you for refusing to relocate. Hence _dont resign_. Some companies try and cheat employees illegally by not only telling you one of two options but also tell you that no response is "voluntary resignation". The correct answer is speak to an employment lawyer, but it's usually as simple as you draft a letter that says "I do not accept the relocation and I AM NOT resigning".

guywithahat 1y ago

I'm also not a lawyer, but wouldn't getting fired for not showing up to work be for-cause, thus excluding you from unemployment benefits? My understanding (which isn't clarified in the article) is these employees weren't hired to be remove, they were hired at an office.

ako 1y ago
Changing working location could be a contract change, and (at least in the netherlands), employees cant be forced to accept contract changes or resign.
- 0cf8612b2e1e 1y ago
  Even in the USA, changing work location seems like constructive dismissal.
  - kcplate 1y ago
    It really depends on what your employment agreement says. If it specifically stipulates that your position is “remote” and your company decides to change that, you could argue that your agreement would need to be renegotiated and their breaking of the contract would entitle you to whatever remedies are in the contract for you when that happens. Hopefully you have a remedy beyond “you stop working for us and we stop paying you”. My guess is that most larger company agreements post-Covid will have a clause that defines that they have the ability to determine the employee’s work location with at-will covering the employee’s option. If you think about it—historically, an organization could move its office and most employees did not have a final say in the location. Companies might try to find locations in a workable proximity for most employees, and relocation help options if it’s a bigger move. However, generally it was if it didn’t work for you…you found a new job. Covid and remote work changed the dynamics a bit, but with the state of tech employment levels today technology pros may not have much flexibility to push back.
    - 0cf8612b2e1e 1y ago
      Given the mad max employment law, I am just hoping (?) that there are some restrictions on this. Otherwise, why would a company ever do layoffs? Just have an employment clause that you can be relocated at any time. “Yeah, next week we are going to need you to be at work in the Alaska office. Following week, your butt needs to be in Florida. Failure to comply is an instant termination “

ecshafer 1y ago

Unemployment benefits are not that good. You are better off not answering, then coming down to it, say YES I will move. And spend that 90 days looking for a new job.

devoutsalsa 1y ago

Whenever you're applying for unemployment benefits, just give "position eliminated" as the reason. It doesn't ask who eliminated it.

reverendsteveii 1y ago

What you're talking about is called constructive dismissal, which is when rather than firing you an employer changes the nature of your job to make it impossible or intolerable to fulfill, waits for you to either quit or fail to meet the new conditions and get fired for cause, then can avoid paying unemployment. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constructive_dismissal#United_States_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constructive_dismissal#United_...

xtiansimon 1y ago
> “…then can avoid paying unemployment.” I don’t think this is true. Failure to meet your firm’s work standards is not disqualifying. I think it has to be criminal behavior, such as theft. And voluntary leaving a job.
- reverendsteveii 1y ago
  Failure to meet work standards isn't disqualifying but changes to time and location like that aren't written up as failure to meet standards, they're written up as job abandonment, which itself is considered a type of voluntary resignation and is therefore disqualifying. The law differentiates between showing up but being bad at the job and not showing up at all, and constructive dismissal laws exist to prevent employers from manufacturing job abandonment in order to disqualify an employee. One thing I learned in researching this is that constructive dismissal only applies where the employee has resigned rather than being terminated. It's not a non-voluntary resignation, it's a voluntary resignation that is coerced and is therefore an exception to the unemployment laws that would normally disqualify you for resigning voluntarily.

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]