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>but from what I heard startups are moving away from Europe pretty much the other way around. Europe's startup base is still smaller than the US but has been g

>but from what I heard startups are moving away from Europe pretty much the other way around. Europe's startup base is still smaller than the US but has been growing faster. It's now 20% or so of global VC capital compared to about 5% a decade ago, and has produced unicorns at faster rates. Just misses the mega-sized companies at the tail end (https://tech.eu/2023/07/05/europes-best-decade-in-tech-reaching-new-heights-and-outpacing-the-us https://tech.eu/2023/07/05/europes-best-decade-in-tech-reach...) You can just look at an investor like, ironically enough, Thiel who has been pumping a lot of money into European tech. Defense startups in Germany for example.

simianwords 1y ago
[flagged]
- LunaSea 1y ago
  Spotify, Klarna, Mistral don't ring a bell?
  - simianwords 1y ago
    Fair but I absolutely still stand by my point. EU is an economy of around 400 million population and has a handful of startups at max. It’s ridiculous to move your company to Netherlands from USA if practicality was priority and not personal ideology.
    - diggan 1y ago
      Unless you happen to live in/move to the Netherlands, not the US, just like the owner of this company. In that case it makes not sense to have a US-based company if practically was the priority.
      - simianwords 1y ago
        I agree - but moving to the Netherlands was ideological.
        diggan 1y ago
        Disagree, it seems much smoother and practical to live in Europe than the US, at least the countries I've lived in (YMMV obviously). Clearer regulations, easier to be available in multiple countries, less political turmoil, less worry about health and better work/life balance are just some of the things I'd prioritize for business purposes. I don't think I'd consider the US for starting a business unless I was forced to. I don't think favoring things like stability and clarity to be "ideological", those are practical concerns for me. Besides, I think the original part of "FOSS community in Europe is much stronger than in America" to ring quite true too, which if you're building a business that is all about FOSS, also makes much more practical sense to be based in Europe than the US.
        simianwords 1y ago
        >In the United States, capitalism is the secular religion, and my values, in FOSS and otherwise, are incompatible with the American ethos. Here’s what he claims is one of the reasons he moved to Netherlands. You can decide for yourself whether it is ideological or practical. I personally think it is obviously ideological. It has nothing to do with regulations etc
    - cess11 1y ago
      Do you seriously believe that in the EU there are only five small companies doing a single-product or single-service undertaking that involves a degree of risk and isn't immediately profitable? If so, why?
      - simianwords 1y ago
        I believe that Europe is not an ideal place to move your operations to from USa for the same reasons it is not ideal to move to Saudi Arabia even if you can find some startups from both countries.
        LunaSea 1y ago
        Well Europe has a more stable regulatory framework and political scene than the US.
        cess11 1y ago
        It's extremely hard to achieve naturalisation in Saudi Arabia, it's a really weird example for this reason alone, but also because it's more or less an extension of the US.
    - barbazoo 1y ago
      Just because you only know of a handful of startups doesn’t mean there aren’t any. This is a weird hill to die on.
- InsideOutSanta 1y ago
  The answer to your question is yes. I can name half a dozen off the top of my head, from tiny to massive. But that's beside the point. The argument you're making here is disingenuous. You're making an argument from ignorance: "I don't know, therefore aliens." If you can't name a European startup, all that tells you is that you don't know any European startups (or that you know them, but don't know that they are European); so before concluding that they don't exist, you should invest some time into research. Also, your point is self-contradictory. You don't know any European startups, but you do know European startups that moved to the US, so you both don't and do know European startups. You asked why you're getting downvoted. You're getting downvoted because you're making extreme statements that go against what we all see with our own eyes, and you're not providing any evidence.
- homebrewer 1y ago
  I don't know (and don't care) if it's a startup or not, but Deepl has been the highest quality translation engine for language pairs I'm interested in, and Deepl Write has been the most useful grammar and style "fixer" for when I care about them enough to use it. (I'm not from Europe.)
simianwords 1y ago
Also there is absolutely no proof of startups moving to Europe than other way round. You haven’t provided evidence or even anecdotes of it. Merely showing some startups gaining funding doesn’t show the full picture - I can also show similar statistics from India but you don’t see companies moving to India.
- throw-the-towel 1y ago
  Companies absolutely are moving many jobs to India.
  - msgodel 1y ago
    If they're going to do that anyway who cares if they're in your country? In fact it almost makes sense to have as few as possible there because they're just going to do lobbying for regulatory capture.

simianwords 1y ago

[flagged]

LunaSea 1y ago
Spotify, Klarna, Mistral don't ring a bell?
- simianwords 1y ago
  Fair but I absolutely still stand by my point. EU is an economy of around 400 million population and has a handful of startups at max. It’s ridiculous to move your company to Netherlands from USA if practicality was priority and not personal ideology.
  - diggan 1y ago
    Unless you happen to live in/move to the Netherlands, not the US, just like the owner of this company. In that case it makes not sense to have a US-based company if practically was the priority.
    - simianwords 1y ago
      I agree - but moving to the Netherlands was ideological.
      - diggan 1y ago
        Disagree, it seems much smoother and practical to live in Europe than the US, at least the countries I've lived in (YMMV obviously). Clearer regulations, easier to be available in multiple countries, less political turmoil, less worry about health and better work/life balance are just some of the things I'd prioritize for business purposes. I don't think I'd consider the US for starting a business unless I was forced to. I don't think favoring things like stability and clarity to be "ideological", those are practical concerns for me. Besides, I think the original part of "FOSS community in Europe is much stronger than in America" to ring quite true too, which if you're building a business that is all about FOSS, also makes much more practical sense to be based in Europe than the US.
        simianwords 1y ago
        >In the United States, capitalism is the secular religion, and my values, in FOSS and otherwise, are incompatible with the American ethos. Here’s what he claims is one of the reasons he moved to Netherlands. You can decide for yourself whether it is ideological or practical. I personally think it is obviously ideological. It has nothing to do with regulations etc
  - cess11 1y ago
    Do you seriously believe that in the EU there are only five small companies doing a single-product or single-service undertaking that involves a degree of risk and isn't immediately profitable? If so, why?
    - simianwords 1y ago
      I believe that Europe is not an ideal place to move your operations to from USa for the same reasons it is not ideal to move to Saudi Arabia even if you can find some startups from both countries.
      - LunaSea 1y ago
        Well Europe has a more stable regulatory framework and political scene than the US.
      - cess11 1y ago
        It's extremely hard to achieve naturalisation in Saudi Arabia, it's a really weird example for this reason alone, but also because it's more or less an extension of the US.
  - barbazoo 1y ago
    Just because you only know of a handful of startups doesn’t mean there aren’t any. This is a weird hill to die on.
InsideOutSanta 1y ago
The answer to your question is yes. I can name half a dozen off the top of my head, from tiny to massive. But that's beside the point. The argument you're making here is disingenuous. You're making an argument from ignorance: "I don't know, therefore aliens." If you can't name a European startup, all that tells you is that you don't know any European startups (or that you know them, but don't know that they are European); so before concluding that they don't exist, you should invest some time into research. Also, your point is self-contradictory. You don't know any European startups, but you do know European startups that moved to the US, so you both don't and do know European startups. You asked why you're getting downvoted. You're getting downvoted because you're making extreme statements that go against what we all see with our own eyes, and you're not providing any evidence.
homebrewer 1y ago
I don't know (and don't care) if it's a startup or not, but Deepl has been the highest quality translation engine for language pairs I'm interested in, and Deepl Write has been the most useful grammar and style "fixer" for when I care about them enough to use it. (I'm not from Europe.)

simianwords 1y ago

Also there is absolutely no proof of startups moving to Europe than other way round. You haven’t provided evidence or even anecdotes of it. Merely showing some startups gaining funding doesn’t show the full picture - I can also show similar statistics from India but you don’t see companies moving to India.

throw-the-towel 1y ago
Companies absolutely are moving many jobs to India.
- msgodel 1y ago
  If they're going to do that anyway who cares if they're in your country? In fact it almost makes sense to have as few as possible there because they're just going to do lobbying for regulatory capture.