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When I read articles like this my fears always move straight to a future where it has become harder to program for play. I appreciate that this concern is some

When I read articles like this my fears always move straight to a future where it has become harder to program for play. I appreciate that this concern is somewhat superficial compared with some of the issues raised in this article, but I feel profoundly grateful to be able to tinker with computers in my spare time. I feel this more deeply than the fear that my music collection might not survive a computer upgrade or that the government might be watching my internet habits. I think that we, as programmers, enjoy a luxury that is almost unreproducible in any other field. My wife is a structural biologist, and as much as she loves what she does you can't crystallize proteins in our living room. I truly hope that however this unfolds that my son will be able to hack on something, freely and happily (if he so desires) in the future.

thronemonkey 14y ago
I think your fear is totally justified. Programming for play is many people's first step towards a deeper understanding of the machines that run so much of the world these days, and that's important.
nirvana 14y ago
This is one of the reasons I'm such a fan of Apple, despite all the misguided gruff they get here. Apple always ships free (or near free) development tools with their systems. In the Apple II days it was built in to the ROMS. Nowadays on the Mac AppStore you can download Xcode, for free. (though at one point I think it was $5 for some reason.) You can develop any mac apps you want, and run them to your hearts content, and you can develop iOS Apps and run them in the simulator (to distribute these apps via apple's store, you only need a $99 membership, which is pretty affordable, compared to the past when it cost $500-$5,000 for such suites of software.) Its never been easier to be a hacker! And that isn't going to change anytime soon, at least on Apple systems. (All the apple bashing on HN is from the google distortion field, it isn't reality.) Hell, you can even develop iOS apps without using any apple tools and distribute them on the web to anyone, for free, and without any regulation by apple. You just have to use javascript and web technologies, but the full iOS UI is available, including things like touch tracking, gyroscope, GPS, etc. People are so adamant that the iPhone is locked down that many people don't even know this, but it has been in iOS since day one-- in fact it was how Apple wanted everyone to develop apps originally (outside apple's control!) but people kept demanding native apps so apple created the appstore, and the curation of that is a consequence of not wanting malware. (Hard to write javascript malware.)
- Auguste 14y ago
  (All the apple bashing on HN is from the google distortion field, it isn't reality.) Wat? The world isn't divided into Apple users and Google users. I'm sure I'm not the only person who avoids both, and there's plenty out there who love both.
- cageface 14y ago
  You just have to use javascript and web technologies, but the full iOS UI is available, including things like touch tracking, gyroscope, GPS, etc. You've obviously never developed iOS apps. You do not have access to any of the native Apple UIs through Javascript. No UIViewController, no Core Data, no iCloud, etc etc, just like every other HTML5 platform. You have some mediated access to the device but this is nothing like a real native app. And every other platform vendor also ships free development tools.
  - parasubvert 14y ago
    In fairness, you do get a LOT of exposure to the device with JavaScript & HTML5 on iOS: Touch (including Multi-touch sensing), Accelerometer, Gyro, GPS, Compass, Messages, Contacts, Local Storage (SQL or Key/Value), Airplay opt-in, etc.. https://developer.apple.com/library/safari/navigation/#section=Topics&topic=User%20Experience https://developer.apple.com/library/safari/navigation/#secti... So, you can get pretty close to a native experience - Ft.com is an example of this. But yes, a native app adds more (iCloud, 3D graphics, Networking, Files, etc.)
- reedlaw 14y ago
  What about the fact that you can't share programs that you write on an iPad? Apple doesn't allow code downloads inside of apps. I would hardly call Apple an open platform anymore.
- gizmo686 14y ago
  Assuming you are correct about non app-store distribution, you still have the problem that few users will ever find those other distribution systems when the app-store is so close and convenient. This can be contrasted with most Linux package distribution systems. From the end users perspective, they work the same way as the app-store (except that most don't have a payment mechanism, and they handle dependencies). However, in addition to the officially supported repository, it is a simple checkbox, in a readily accessible menu, to enable the community supported repositories. If these repositories are not 'free' enough for you, they make it easy to add 3rd party repositories. This would be the same as Apple letting you integrate non-Apple app-stores seamlessly into the app-store app. Admittedly, at this point we are back in the realm of more advanced users, however the distributions make adding 3rd party repositories as easy as I can imagine (you just need to put the URL in the user-friendly menu). And, once you add another repository, you need to go out of your way to where which repository you are installing from. Assuming Apple does not change their app aceptence policies, and don't have a less strict repository that can be checkbox-enabled, it does not seem difficult to believe that 1 or 2 3rd party stores would gain widespread use. It is even more believable when you look at how common jailbraking is. Now replace the concerns about warranties, bricking, hacking with comfort by how well supported it is.
blub 14y ago
Programming for play should be the least of your worries when there's a risk of having to ask for permission to do anything some corporation doesn't want you to do on your device. Or just being prevented from doing it period.

thronemonkey 14y ago

I think your fear is totally justified. Programming for play is many people's first step towards a deeper understanding of the machines that run so much of the world these days, and that's important.

nirvana 14y ago

This is one of the reasons I'm such a fan of Apple, despite all the misguided gruff they get here. Apple always ships free (or near free) development tools with their systems. In the Apple II days it was built in to the ROMS. Nowadays on the Mac AppStore you can download Xcode, for free. (though at one point I think it was $5 for some reason.) You can develop any mac apps you want, and run them to your hearts content, and you can develop iOS Apps and run them in the simulator (to distribute these apps via apple's store, you only need a $99 membership, which is pretty affordable, compared to the past when it cost $500-$5,000 for such suites of software.) Its never been easier to be a hacker! And that isn't going to change anytime soon, at least on Apple systems. (All the apple bashing on HN is from the google distortion field, it isn't reality.) Hell, you can even develop iOS apps without using any apple tools and distribute them on the web to anyone, for free, and without any regulation by apple. You just have to use javascript and web technologies, but the full iOS UI is available, including things like touch tracking, gyroscope, GPS, etc. People are so adamant that the iPhone is locked down that many people don't even know this, but it has been in iOS since day one-- in fact it was how Apple wanted everyone to develop apps originally (outside apple's control!) but people kept demanding native apps so apple created the appstore, and the curation of that is a consequence of not wanting malware. (Hard to write javascript malware.)

Auguste 14y ago
(All the apple bashing on HN is from the google distortion field, it isn't reality.) Wat? The world isn't divided into Apple users and Google users. I'm sure I'm not the only person who avoids both, and there's plenty out there who love both.
cageface 14y ago
You just have to use javascript and web technologies, but the full iOS UI is available, including things like touch tracking, gyroscope, GPS, etc. You've obviously never developed iOS apps. You do not have access to any of the native Apple UIs through Javascript. No UIViewController, no Core Data, no iCloud, etc etc, just like every other HTML5 platform. You have some mediated access to the device but this is nothing like a real native app. And every other platform vendor also ships free development tools.
- parasubvert 14y ago
  In fairness, you do get a LOT of exposure to the device with JavaScript & HTML5 on iOS: Touch (including Multi-touch sensing), Accelerometer, Gyro, GPS, Compass, Messages, Contacts, Local Storage (SQL or Key/Value), Airplay opt-in, etc.. https://developer.apple.com/library/safari/navigation/#section=Topics&topic=User%20Experience https://developer.apple.com/library/safari/navigation/#secti... So, you can get pretty close to a native experience - Ft.com is an example of this. But yes, a native app adds more (iCloud, 3D graphics, Networking, Files, etc.)
reedlaw 14y ago
What about the fact that you can't share programs that you write on an iPad? Apple doesn't allow code downloads inside of apps. I would hardly call Apple an open platform anymore.
gizmo686 14y ago
Assuming you are correct about non app-store distribution, you still have the problem that few users will ever find those other distribution systems when the app-store is so close and convenient. This can be contrasted with most Linux package distribution systems. From the end users perspective, they work the same way as the app-store (except that most don't have a payment mechanism, and they handle dependencies). However, in addition to the officially supported repository, it is a simple checkbox, in a readily accessible menu, to enable the community supported repositories. If these repositories are not 'free' enough for you, they make it easy to add 3rd party repositories. This would be the same as Apple letting you integrate non-Apple app-stores seamlessly into the app-store app. Admittedly, at this point we are back in the realm of more advanced users, however the distributions make adding 3rd party repositories as easy as I can imagine (you just need to put the URL in the user-friendly menu). And, once you add another repository, you need to go out of your way to where which repository you are installing from. Assuming Apple does not change their app aceptence policies, and don't have a less strict repository that can be checkbox-enabled, it does not seem difficult to believe that 1 or 2 3rd party stores would gain widespread use. It is even more believable when you look at how common jailbraking is. Now replace the concerns about warranties, bricking, hacking with comfort by how well supported it is.

blub 14y ago

Programming for play should be the least of your worries when there's a risk of having to ask for permission to do anything some corporation doesn't want you to do on your device. Or just being prevented from doing it period.