3 ms·

> then used as mini PCs, media players, IoT wall terminals with bigger screens or other uses If they can be used like that, why couldn't they be used... as pho

by palata 1y ago

> then used as mini PCs, media players, IoT wall terminals with bigger screens or other uses If they can be used like that, why couldn't they be used... as phones? Changing phone every two years is not sustainable, even if the old phone is used as an IoT wall terminal: it's still "consuming" one phone every two years. In a sense, an old phone in a drawer uses less energy than an old phone staying powered to control a lightbulb. > planned obsolescence Nitpick: I like to call it "premature obsolescence". Planned obsolescence is the idea of engineering the product to not last more than some time. I think nowadays it's often not the case; rather we engineer the product to last for the time of the warranty (1-2 years) and not more. And a product dying after 1 year is "premature", even though it was not actively engineered for that.

TheDong 1y ago
People will usually only carry one phone, and they'll want one that is capable of running recent apps, storing their photos and music, and also taking high quality photos. If you upgrade a phone to get a new one with a better camera, well, the processor on the old one is probably decent still, it could be a mini PC where the camera quality doesn't matter. Also, it's a status symbol, you can't just _not_ upgrade.
- palata 1y ago
  > they'll want one that is capable of My feeling is that phones are not evolving that quickly anymore, though. > If you upgrade a phone to get a new one with a better camera, well, the processor on the old one is probably decent still, it could be a mini PC where the camera quality doesn't matter. Sure, but if you didn't need the mini PC in the first place, then it's not more sustainable than throwing it away. It's actually less sustainable, because now you consume energy for a mini PC you didn't need. Not saying people should not get their new toy. Just that they should not pretend it's sustainable :-). > Also, it's a status symbol, you can't just _not_ upgrade. Around me it's become more and more of a status symbol to not upgrade. It's sometimes almost a competition of "who has the oldest phone", and nobody is impressed by someone buying the latest iPhone. So... it's not the same everywhere :-).
  - parineum 1y ago
    > Around me it's become more You've become older and the status symbols have changed.
    - palata 1y ago
      Sure, that's part of it. But I stay convinced that in the beginning of smartphones, they would dramatically improve every year. Now... not so much.
- ikurei 1y ago
  > Also, it's a status symbol, you can't just _not_ upgrade. This is a huge part of the change we need. I felt proud in a way to show off that I was still using an iPhone 8 until a couple of years ago, and I admire some (techy) people I know still using a phone from that time. Is pride a healthy, wholesome motivator? May be not, but we're human.
- WhyNotHugo 1y ago
  > Also, it's a status symbol, you can't just _not_ upgrade. You can choose not to upgrade. Obtaining status symbols is a choice (and a pretty vain one too). Even if your lifestyle requires these empty displays of status, that's a choice of lifestyle that you've made. You can be perfectly successful in life with a 5 years old phone.
  - komali2 1y ago
    Maybe we can do to phones what tech bros did to suits in the early 2000's. There's that saying, something along the lines of, "It used to be that everyone looked to the one in the suit, now everyone looks to the one in a hoodie." Maybe we can convince people that a run down secondhand phone is a display of wealth and power :P
- lan321 1y ago
  > People will usually only carry one phone On that note, please, someone make a phone with more than 2 active SIMs. At this point, I have four SIMs, and they're more likely to increase than to reduce...
snarg 1y ago
> If they can be used like that, why couldn't they be used... as phones? To facilitate planned obsolescence, manufacturers stop providing OS updates after a relatively short time. And then they cease providing security patches after a... still relatively short time. If you unlock the device and install a custom ROM, which may or may not function adequately for you to begin with, then you're probably also compromising secure boot, which is a problem for the security model of how many people use phones -- and many apps simply refuse to work with this setup (whereas the obsolete OS with no security patches is considered fine, apparently).
- xeonmc 1y ago
  Why couldn’t manufacturers proclaiming to espouse longevity, such as Fairphone, release the vendor source code for out-of-support hardware which are supposedly no longer relevant and so doesn’t matter if the competition can see the code? Or is it an issue of signing certificates?
  - palata 1y ago
    I wonder, but it could be that some of the hardware they use doesn't offer an open source firmware. Qualcomm for instance isn't super open. IMO we should put in the law that manufacturers have to mainstream their device and provide a way to flash an updated firmware. There is no way they do it without being forced, because it's a pure source of cost for them. That's how it works: companies optimise in the legal framework we give them. Regulations set that framework.
  - immibis 1y ago
    Contracts with vendors, usually. Vendors who make not much of their profit from Fairphone and would happily cut them off if they wanted terms like that. There's a reason Pine64's devices (which are made out of parts with available public datasheets as much as possible - they don't do the software side of things) are mostly made with parts from a few generations ago, whose manufacturer doesn't care much any more.
- palata 1y ago
  > To facilitate planned obsolescence, manufacturers stop providing OS updates I don't think it works like that. Manufacturers stop providing OS updates as soon as they can because providing any kind of support has a cost. Planned obsolescence means "they care about making it obsolete" (active). But the reality is that they just "don't care about keeping the product alive" (passive). And the only way to make them provide updates is to force them by law. > If you unlock the device and install a custom ROM, which may or may not function adequately for you to begin with, then you're probably also compromising secure boot You can relock the bootloader with the FairPhone. You will still have a message saying it's a custom OS, but I don't think it compromises the secure boot, does it? > many apps simply refuse to work with this setup I heard that there are apps that refuse to work with an unlocked bootloader, but I haven't heard of apps refusing to work with a relocked bootloader. Is that a thing?
Tijdreiziger 1y ago
Under the new EU Ecodesign regulation, smartphone manufacturers must provide software updates for at least 5 years after the date of last sale, not 1-2 years. (Applies to newly released devices, not to devices which were already on the market as of June 20). https://single-market-economy.ec.europa.eu/news/new-eu-rules-durable-energy-efficient-and-repairable-smartphones-and-tablets-start-applying-2025-06-20_en https://single-market-economy.ec.europa.eu/news/new-eu-rules...
- Vilian 1y ago
  Would that translate in 5 years Android updates or just security updates?
  - bmicraft 1y ago
    The law only cares about security, but manufacturers are free to do better than that.
jvanderbot 1y ago
I haven't bought a new phone in ages. I buy second-hand phones (making them often 1-2 years old), then I either resell them after I'm done (usually I cycle every 3-5 years), or I do precisely this - turning them into app controllers or wallets or something. Or games, etc. I keep two around in case one breaks. This isn't hard. And it saves a ton of money.
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]

by palata 1y ago

TheDong 1y ago

People will usually only carry one phone, and they'll want one that is capable of running recent apps, storing their photos and music, and also taking high quality photos. If you upgrade a phone to get a new one with a better camera, well, the processor on the old one is probably decent still, it could be a mini PC where the camera quality doesn't matter. Also, it's a status symbol, you can't just _not_ upgrade.

palata 1y ago
> they'll want one that is capable of My feeling is that phones are not evolving that quickly anymore, though. > If you upgrade a phone to get a new one with a better camera, well, the processor on the old one is probably decent still, it could be a mini PC where the camera quality doesn't matter. Sure, but if you didn't need the mini PC in the first place, then it's not more sustainable than throwing it away. It's actually less sustainable, because now you consume energy for a mini PC you didn't need. Not saying people should not get their new toy. Just that they should not pretend it's sustainable :-). > Also, it's a status symbol, you can't just _not_ upgrade. Around me it's become more and more of a status symbol to not upgrade. It's sometimes almost a competition of "who has the oldest phone", and nobody is impressed by someone buying the latest iPhone. So... it's not the same everywhere :-).
- parineum 1y ago
  > Around me it's become more You've become older and the status symbols have changed.
  - palata 1y ago
    Sure, that's part of it. But I stay convinced that in the beginning of smartphones, they would dramatically improve every year. Now... not so much.
ikurei 1y ago
> Also, it's a status symbol, you can't just _not_ upgrade. This is a huge part of the change we need. I felt proud in a way to show off that I was still using an iPhone 8 until a couple of years ago, and I admire some (techy) people I know still using a phone from that time. Is pride a healthy, wholesome motivator? May be not, but we're human.
WhyNotHugo 1y ago
> Also, it's a status symbol, you can't just _not_ upgrade. You can choose not to upgrade. Obtaining status symbols is a choice (and a pretty vain one too). Even if your lifestyle requires these empty displays of status, that's a choice of lifestyle that you've made. You can be perfectly successful in life with a 5 years old phone.
- komali2 1y ago
  Maybe we can do to phones what tech bros did to suits in the early 2000's. There's that saying, something along the lines of, "It used to be that everyone looked to the one in the suit, now everyone looks to the one in a hoodie." Maybe we can convince people that a run down secondhand phone is a display of wealth and power :P
lan321 1y ago
> People will usually only carry one phone On that note, please, someone make a phone with more than 2 active SIMs. At this point, I have four SIMs, and they're more likely to increase than to reduce...

snarg 1y ago

> If they can be used like that, why couldn't they be used... as phones? To facilitate planned obsolescence, manufacturers stop providing OS updates after a relatively short time. And then they cease providing security patches after a... still relatively short time. If you unlock the device and install a custom ROM, which may or may not function adequately for you to begin with, then you're probably also compromising secure boot, which is a problem for the security model of how many people use phones -- and many apps simply refuse to work with this setup (whereas the obsolete OS with no security patches is considered fine, apparently).

xeonmc 1y ago
Why couldn’t manufacturers proclaiming to espouse longevity, such as Fairphone, release the vendor source code for out-of-support hardware which are supposedly no longer relevant and so doesn’t matter if the competition can see the code? Or is it an issue of signing certificates?
- palata 1y ago
  I wonder, but it could be that some of the hardware they use doesn't offer an open source firmware. Qualcomm for instance isn't super open. IMO we should put in the law that manufacturers have to mainstream their device and provide a way to flash an updated firmware. There is no way they do it without being forced, because it's a pure source of cost for them. That's how it works: companies optimise in the legal framework we give them. Regulations set that framework.
- immibis 1y ago
  Contracts with vendors, usually. Vendors who make not much of their profit from Fairphone and would happily cut them off if they wanted terms like that. There's a reason Pine64's devices (which are made out of parts with available public datasheets as much as possible - they don't do the software side of things) are mostly made with parts from a few generations ago, whose manufacturer doesn't care much any more.
palata 1y ago
> To facilitate planned obsolescence, manufacturers stop providing OS updates I don't think it works like that. Manufacturers stop providing OS updates as soon as they can because providing any kind of support has a cost. Planned obsolescence means "they care about making it obsolete" (active). But the reality is that they just "don't care about keeping the product alive" (passive). And the only way to make them provide updates is to force them by law. > If you unlock the device and install a custom ROM, which may or may not function adequately for you to begin with, then you're probably also compromising secure boot You can relock the bootloader with the FairPhone. You will still have a message saying it's a custom OS, but I don't think it compromises the secure boot, does it? > many apps simply refuse to work with this setup I heard that there are apps that refuse to work with an unlocked bootloader, but I haven't heard of apps refusing to work with a relocked bootloader. Is that a thing?

Tijdreiziger 1y ago

Under the new EU Ecodesign regulation, smartphone manufacturers must provide software updates for at least 5 years after the date of last sale, not 1-2 years. (Applies to newly released devices, not to devices which were already on the market as of June 20). https://single-market-economy.ec.europa.eu/news/new-eu-rules-durable-energy-efficient-and-repairable-smartphones-and-tablets-start-applying-2025-06-20_en https://single-market-economy.ec.europa.eu/news/new-eu-rules...

Vilian 1y ago
Would that translate in 5 years Android updates or just security updates?
- bmicraft 1y ago
  The law only cares about security, but manufacturers are free to do better than that.

jvanderbot 1y ago

I haven't bought a new phone in ages. I buy second-hand phones (making them often 1-2 years old), then I either resell them after I'm done (usually I cycle every 3-5 years), or I do precisely this - turning them into app controllers or wallets or something. Or games, etc. I keep two around in case one breaks. This isn't hard. And it saves a ton of money.

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]