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This is a problem in many industries, for example animation. https://www.cartoonbrew.com/ideas-commentary/annecy-exposes-the-widening-chasm-between-student-hop

This is a problem in many industries, for example animation. https://www.cartoonbrew.com/ideas-commentary/annecy-exposes-the-widening-chasm-between-student-hopes-and-industry-reality-247927.html https://www.cartoonbrew.com/ideas-commentary/annecy-exposes-... I’m beginning to think we need to change academia to be driven more by employer demand than by student demand. Stop lying to people, like I was lied to. You probably can’t live your dream. You probably can’t grow up to be what you want. The vast majority of people have to do what society needs. Let various industries tell the universities what kind of labor force is needed. Then universities should set the numbers of students they accept for those majors accordingly. The time to tell people no is before they spend several years of their lives and a fortune of tuition money in training to do something that will be a dead end.

lawlessone 1y ago
Perhaps we should do the same in schools and let local industries choose the curriculums most suitable to their needs. Children in coal towns don't need to know Shakespeare and shouldn't have aspirations./s
- LudwigNagasena 1y ago
  Shakespeare is read in middle school. It’s also available for purchase in any bookshop along with supplementary material, not to mention various free materials on YouTube, forums, study groups, etc. It’s not some sort of sacred knowledge only available to PhD students.
  - lawlessone 1y ago
    >Shakespeare is read in middle school. Sounds wasteful. The children do not need this to serve my coffee or work in the mines. Business First.
    - LudwigNagasena 1y ago
      You need a lot of children in the mines to support so many Shakespeare PhDs, so I am not sure you are making a point you are trying to make.
- dctoedt 1y ago
  > Children in coal towns don't need to know Shakespeare and shouldn't have aspirations. That's a pretty astounding assertion.
  - lapcat 1y ago
    > That's a pretty astounding assertion. Or obvious sarcasm.
    - dctoedt 1y ago
      Ah — point taken; I missed the "/s" at the end (it might not have been there when I read the comment).
      - lawlessone 1y ago
        In your defence i added the /s later, after I realized it there are people that would genuinely hold that opinion.
  - lawlessone 1y ago
    I know, i was trying to bring the idea of business controlling education to a "reductio ad absurdum"
Analemma_ 1y ago
Academia will never go for this of its own volition, because "higher education is about learning for its own sake and becoming a more complete individual and citizen" is key to academics' self-conception. They never want to admit to being "mere" vocational training, now matter how clear it is that's what they are and have been for a while. If your proposed change does happen, it will have to be forced on them from without.
- Simulacra 1y ago
  Correction: higher education will never go for this because it's not profitable
  - nitwit005 1y ago
    Even in some sort of hypothetical sotuation where money isn't an issue, if you have 3 schools, and only need 1, you can see none of the schools wanting to be the ones to be shut down.
TheRealPomax 1y ago
This is called proposing a short sighted solution to an incredibly complex problem, and you should ask yourself some serious questions about why this is what you think should happen. Then look up the many times others suggested this and the overwhelming arguments that people have made to go "absolutely not, because education does not serve industry, is not paid for by industry, and is not appreciated by industry" in many, many variations.
yummypaint 1y ago
With a decent general education as a prerequisite, most adults are able to do most jobs well. That is the best way for most people to hedge against things being disrupted. It's impossible to know what the future will hold for one's profession. Industry recently demanded "coders" and now a generation of compsci majors are finding the jobs of the present aren't the jobs of the past. A similar thing happened to secretaries and typists. Meanwhile people who were perhaps language or history majors and ended up with stronger communication skills often end up as executives. There are many paths.
gbacon 1y ago
Part of Accreditation Board for Engineering and Technology (ABET) accreditation is having an Industrial Advisory Board (IAB). Whether it is a box to be checked or a source of input for thoughtful consideration is another question. Asking career academics to adapt to industrial environments with which many (clinical professors or professors of practice excepted) have limited experience seems like a bridge too far. What is the source of the assumption that all PhD students want academic posts? The article cited a survey that concluded PhD holders were largely satisfied with their careers, so that population don’t appear to be the squeaky wheels. Other motivations for pursuing a PhD include climbing the mountain because it’s there, moving up the labor schedule, going for a senior position later in one’s career, good relationship with a particular advisor, or delaying entry into the real world.

lawlessone 1y ago

Perhaps we should do the same in schools and let local industries choose the curriculums most suitable to their needs. Children in coal towns don't need to know Shakespeare and shouldn't have aspirations./s

LudwigNagasena 1y ago
Shakespeare is read in middle school. It’s also available for purchase in any bookshop along with supplementary material, not to mention various free materials on YouTube, forums, study groups, etc. It’s not some sort of sacred knowledge only available to PhD students.
- lawlessone 1y ago
  >Shakespeare is read in middle school. Sounds wasteful. The children do not need this to serve my coffee or work in the mines. Business First.
  - LudwigNagasena 1y ago
    You need a lot of children in the mines to support so many Shakespeare PhDs, so I am not sure you are making a point you are trying to make.
dctoedt 1y ago
> Children in coal towns don't need to know Shakespeare and shouldn't have aspirations. That's a pretty astounding assertion.
- lapcat 1y ago
  > That's a pretty astounding assertion. Or obvious sarcasm.
  - dctoedt 1y ago
    Ah — point taken; I missed the "/s" at the end (it might not have been there when I read the comment).
    - lawlessone 1y ago
      In your defence i added the /s later, after I realized it there are people that would genuinely hold that opinion.
- lawlessone 1y ago
  I know, i was trying to bring the idea of business controlling education to a "reductio ad absurdum"

Analemma_ 1y ago

Academia will never go for this of its own volition, because "higher education is about learning for its own sake and becoming a more complete individual and citizen" is key to academics' self-conception. They never want to admit to being "mere" vocational training, now matter how clear it is that's what they are and have been for a while. If your proposed change does happen, it will have to be forced on them from without.

Simulacra 1y ago
Correction: higher education will never go for this because it's not profitable
- nitwit005 1y ago
  Even in some sort of hypothetical sotuation where money isn't an issue, if you have 3 schools, and only need 1, you can see none of the schools wanting to be the ones to be shut down.

TheRealPomax 1y ago

This is called proposing a short sighted solution to an incredibly complex problem, and you should ask yourself some serious questions about why this is what you think should happen. Then look up the many times others suggested this and the overwhelming arguments that people have made to go "absolutely not, because education does not serve industry, is not paid for by industry, and is not appreciated by industry" in many, many variations.

yummypaint 1y ago

With a decent general education as a prerequisite, most adults are able to do most jobs well. That is the best way for most people to hedge against things being disrupted. It's impossible to know what the future will hold for one's profession. Industry recently demanded "coders" and now a generation of compsci majors are finding the jobs of the present aren't the jobs of the past. A similar thing happened to secretaries and typists. Meanwhile people who were perhaps language or history majors and ended up with stronger communication skills often end up as executives. There are many paths.

gbacon 1y ago

Part of Accreditation Board for Engineering and Technology (ABET) accreditation is having an Industrial Advisory Board (IAB). Whether it is a box to be checked or a source of input for thoughtful consideration is another question. Asking career academics to adapt to industrial environments with which many (clinical professors or professors of practice excepted) have limited experience seems like a bridge too far. What is the source of the assumption that all PhD students want academic posts? The article cited a survey that concluded PhD holders were largely satisfied with their careers, so that population don’t appear to be the squeaky wheels. Other motivations for pursuing a PhD include climbing the mountain because it’s there, moving up the labor schedule, going for a senior position later in one’s career, good relationship with a particular advisor, or delaying entry into the real world.