6 ms·

Reads very similar to some blackouts we had in Australia. Weakly connected grids with vast geographical distances leading to oscillations that took down the gri

Reads very similar to some blackouts we had in Australia. Weakly connected grids with vast geographical distances leading to oscillations that took down the grid. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_South_Australian_blackout https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_South_Australian_blackout Completely solved with lithium based grid storage at key locations btw. This grid storage has also been massively profitable for it's owners https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hornsdale_Power_Reserve#Revenues_from_operation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hornsdale_Power_Reserve#Revenu... Australia currently has 4 of the 5 largest battery storage systems under construction as a result of this profit opportunity; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battery_energy_storage_system#Under_construction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battery_energy_storage_system#... You can also read numerous stories of how Australia's lithium ion grid storage systems have prevented blackouts in many cases. https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-big-battery-south-australia-3-blackouts/ https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-big-battery-south-australia-... The fact is that the batteries responsiveness is the fastest of any system at correcting gaps like this. 50/60hz is nothing for a lithium ion battery nor are brief periods of multi-gigawatt draw/dumping as needed. There's even articles that if Europe investing in battery storage systems like Australia they'd have avoided this. https://reneweconomy.com.au/no-batteries-no-flexibility-spain-could-have-avoided-blackout-with-lessons-learned-in-south-australia/ https://reneweconomy.com.au/no-batteries-no-flexibility-spai...

londons_explore 1y ago
> nor are brief periods of multi-gigawatt draw/dumping as needed. Actually this is typically an issue for grid batteries. Spinning generators can easily briefly go to 10x the rated current for a second or so to smooth out big anomalies. Stationary batteries inverters can't do 10x current spikes ever - the max they can get to is more like 1.2x for a few seconds. That means you end up needing a lot of batteries to provide the same spinning reserve as one regular power station.
- AnotherGoodName 1y ago
  Collectively Australia's battery storage systems will be able to beat any single power plant for peak output in Australia once fully built out based on pure numbers. But for these sorts of grid oscillations the more important thing is the localization of generation. Which obviously favours the batteries over large centralized power stations in any case.
  - adev_ 1y ago
    Being enthusiastic about battery technologies is one thing, spreading misinformation to support someone convictions is an other. What causes the Iberian blackout is excessive reactive power and a lack of compensation at a given time (due to multiple factors). Compensation of reactive power has strictly nothing to do with localization of generation. It barely even can be assimilated to oscillations That's complete garbage and it shows mainly you do not seem to know much about Electricity power in general.
- giantg2 1y ago
  Seems like pumped hydro offers a nice compromise.
  - AnotherGoodName 1y ago
    Fwiw the hornsdale battery linked above cost AUD$172 million and can provide 2000MW of equivalent inertia. Link: https://www.energymagazine.com.au/sa-approves-world-first-battery-powered-grid-inertia-services/ https://www.energymagazine.com.au/sa-approves-world-first-ba... That equivalent inertia can only be done for short periods but that's exactly what grids need in stability - there's generally no lack of total generation, just a need to jump in and smooth out spikes. You can't build a dam for that price, nor could you do it in under 100 days from contract signing as that battery was built. Batteries are definitely the answer here. The 'more spinning mass' answers don't make sense since Australia literally solved the above problem in a much cheaper way already.
    - giantg2 1y ago
      You don't need to build a dam, you just need the pipes and pumps for an existing dam (or elevated natural basin).
      - _carbyau_ 1y ago
        I thought you needed two dams. One higher than the other. You pump water back and forth between the two to generate or capture energy. Is it that common that dams are already existing in nearby-ish pairs with the sufficient height difference? And that we haven't done this already? Doing this is good where we can. But it has geographical limitations. Batteries don't so much.
        Rodeoclash 1y ago
        My layman's understanding is that most locations that are suitable for pumped storage already have pumped storage built on them.
- ajross 1y ago
  That... doesn't sound correct. Inverters are the cheap part, you can literally wire as many as you want in parallel. Batteries have immense power availability, with most chemistries you can trivially deliver the entire capacity in half an hour or so (more like 5 minutes with lithium cells). Basically I'm dubious. I'm sure there are grids somewhere that have misprovisioned their inverter capacity, but I don't buy that battery facilities are inherently unable to buffer spikes. Is there a cite I can read?
  - AnotherGoodName 1y ago
    Agreed. The relatively small battery substation linked above can output 2GW of equivalent inertia generation (a measure to align batteries to inertial power systems) when needed. That's an entire power station they can match for short periods of time. Link: https://www.energymagazine.com.au/sa-approves-world-first-battery-powered-grid-inertia-services/ https://www.energymagazine.com.au/sa-approves-world-first-ba... Australia's largest power plant has 2.9GW of inertial generation assuming all generators are running at 100%. As in the small battery substation alone comes close to the countries largest power station. I'm not sure where the idea that lithium ion can't dump power quickly comes from. They are absolutely phenomenal at it. Australia's building dozens of these substations too since they are so cheap and reduce overall power costs. It's a win from all points of view.
    - tacticus 1y ago
      > assuming all generators are running at 100%. which they won't ever be given the habits of coal plants to suffer outages whenever it's convenient to pump the price up.
    - bob1029 1y ago
      The article does not describe an inertia constant. Without the time component, any comparison to traditional systems is meaningless. Inertia is a measure of energy, not power. Large spinning masses can provide several seconds of inertia. For 2GW of traditional turbine, you would have between 10-20 gigawatt-seconds of energy that is instantly available at any moment to resist RoCoF.
- z_rex 1y ago
  A spinning generator is not outputting 10x it's rated current over any significant amount of time. You can only add so much steam or fuel to a turbine, and the rotor has a lot of inertia, but not enough to account for 10X its rated capacity for a second. The electrical switchyards would trip nearly instantaneously if it's connected plant output 10X its rated input.
  - egberts1 1y ago
    You can if the load was 10x under max. before getting tripped. Misaligned oscillation can occurs under ANY load.
    - javawizard 1y ago
      Batteries would also be able to 10x if their load was 10x under max, so I'm not sure how this is relevant to GP's point.
      - lobochrome 1y ago
        The inverter would melt presumably.
        Geezus_42 1y ago
        Just looking for an excuse. Lol
  - zekrioca 1y ago
    Let alone the transmission lines totally catching fire after a 10X output increase.
    - Gud 1y ago
      Where are you getting this information from? Although I’m hardly an expert on power lines(my factory produces HV switchgear), a 1s short circuit current rating of 10x(actually more) is normal, standard to IEC norms.
- outside1234 1y ago
  What batteries CAN do however is go from 0W to their capacity watts in milliseconds. It is their instant-on ability that is disruptive.
  - IndrekR 1y ago
    Not only from 0W, but from negative capacity (max charging power) to positive capacity (max discharging power).
- pjc50 1y ago
  > Spinning generators can easily briefly go to 10x the rated current for a second or so to smooth out big anomalies. I'm very suspicious of this, because it would also imply 10x overcurrent on the associated transmission gear. There's limits on how much you can overcurrent a transformer before the core magnetically saturates, for example. Also I would expect protection systems to trip out at such a huge divergence from rated current. Do we have a citation?
xwolfi 1y ago
But Australia is tiny: 27M people. Just Spain is twice as big, and the European grid serves 500M people, we don't have the same problems, and probably can't solve them with the Australian solutions.
- laurencerowe 1y ago
  I wouldn't dismiss lessons from Australia. It has slightly higher electricity consumption than Spain (273 vs 265TWh/annually [1].) And there are limited interconnections to France [2]: > That problem may not have been entirely Spain’s fault, El País said. “Interconnections with the rest of the continent continue to be much fewer than the European Commission recommends, not because Spain isn’t interested, but because France has for years resisted expanding them.” [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_electricity_consumption https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_electrici... [2] https://www.theenergymix.com/massive-blackout-in-spain-shows-need-for-grid-investment-battery-storage-experts-say/ https://www.theenergymix.com/massive-blackout-in-spain-shows...
  - bigbacaloa 1y ago
    [dead]
cyberax 1y ago
> Completely solved with lithium based grid storage at key locations btw. That's because Australia has a moderate amount of renewables and prefers to burn fossil fuels. Right now, around 25% of the electricity in Australia is generated by solar or wind. Spain is past 50% of renewable generation, and their problems are much bigger.
- AnotherGoodName 1y ago
  The state where this was occurring before the battery build out is over 70% renewables. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_in_South_Australia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_in_South_Australia

londons_explore 1y ago

> nor are brief periods of multi-gigawatt draw/dumping as needed. Actually this is typically an issue for grid batteries. Spinning generators can easily briefly go to 10x the rated current for a second or so to smooth out big anomalies. Stationary batteries inverters can't do 10x current spikes ever - the max they can get to is more like 1.2x for a few seconds. That means you end up needing a lot of batteries to provide the same spinning reserve as one regular power station.

AnotherGoodName 1y ago
Collectively Australia's battery storage systems will be able to beat any single power plant for peak output in Australia once fully built out based on pure numbers. But for these sorts of grid oscillations the more important thing is the localization of generation. Which obviously favours the batteries over large centralized power stations in any case.
- adev_ 1y ago
  Being enthusiastic about battery technologies is one thing, spreading misinformation to support someone convictions is an other. What causes the Iberian blackout is excessive reactive power and a lack of compensation at a given time (due to multiple factors). Compensation of reactive power has strictly nothing to do with localization of generation. It barely even can be assimilated to oscillations That's complete garbage and it shows mainly you do not seem to know much about Electricity power in general.
giantg2 1y ago
Seems like pumped hydro offers a nice compromise.
- AnotherGoodName 1y ago
  Fwiw the hornsdale battery linked above cost AUD$172 million and can provide 2000MW of equivalent inertia. Link: https://www.energymagazine.com.au/sa-approves-world-first-battery-powered-grid-inertia-services/ https://www.energymagazine.com.au/sa-approves-world-first-ba... That equivalent inertia can only be done for short periods but that's exactly what grids need in stability - there's generally no lack of total generation, just a need to jump in and smooth out spikes. You can't build a dam for that price, nor could you do it in under 100 days from contract signing as that battery was built. Batteries are definitely the answer here. The 'more spinning mass' answers don't make sense since Australia literally solved the above problem in a much cheaper way already.
  - giantg2 1y ago
    You don't need to build a dam, you just need the pipes and pumps for an existing dam (or elevated natural basin).
    - _carbyau_ 1y ago
      I thought you needed two dams. One higher than the other. You pump water back and forth between the two to generate or capture energy. Is it that common that dams are already existing in nearby-ish pairs with the sufficient height difference? And that we haven't done this already? Doing this is good where we can. But it has geographical limitations. Batteries don't so much.
      - Rodeoclash 1y ago
        My layman's understanding is that most locations that are suitable for pumped storage already have pumped storage built on them.
ajross 1y ago
That... doesn't sound correct. Inverters are the cheap part, you can literally wire as many as you want in parallel. Batteries have immense power availability, with most chemistries you can trivially deliver the entire capacity in half an hour or so (more like 5 minutes with lithium cells). Basically I'm dubious. I'm sure there are grids somewhere that have misprovisioned their inverter capacity, but I don't buy that battery facilities are inherently unable to buffer spikes. Is there a cite I can read?
- AnotherGoodName 1y ago
  Agreed. The relatively small battery substation linked above can output 2GW of equivalent inertia generation (a measure to align batteries to inertial power systems) when needed. That's an entire power station they can match for short periods of time. Link: https://www.energymagazine.com.au/sa-approves-world-first-battery-powered-grid-inertia-services/ https://www.energymagazine.com.au/sa-approves-world-first-ba... Australia's largest power plant has 2.9GW of inertial generation assuming all generators are running at 100%. As in the small battery substation alone comes close to the countries largest power station. I'm not sure where the idea that lithium ion can't dump power quickly comes from. They are absolutely phenomenal at it. Australia's building dozens of these substations too since they are so cheap and reduce overall power costs. It's a win from all points of view.
  - tacticus 1y ago
    > assuming all generators are running at 100%. which they won't ever be given the habits of coal plants to suffer outages whenever it's convenient to pump the price up.
  - bob1029 1y ago
    The article does not describe an inertia constant. Without the time component, any comparison to traditional systems is meaningless. Inertia is a measure of energy, not power. Large spinning masses can provide several seconds of inertia. For 2GW of traditional turbine, you would have between 10-20 gigawatt-seconds of energy that is instantly available at any moment to resist RoCoF.
z_rex 1y ago
A spinning generator is not outputting 10x it's rated current over any significant amount of time. You can only add so much steam or fuel to a turbine, and the rotor has a lot of inertia, but not enough to account for 10X its rated capacity for a second. The electrical switchyards would trip nearly instantaneously if it's connected plant output 10X its rated input.
- egberts1 1y ago
  You can if the load was 10x under max. before getting tripped. Misaligned oscillation can occurs under ANY load.
  - javawizard 1y ago
    Batteries would also be able to 10x if their load was 10x under max, so I'm not sure how this is relevant to GP's point.
    - lobochrome 1y ago
      The inverter would melt presumably.
      - Geezus_42 1y ago
        Just looking for an excuse. Lol
- zekrioca 1y ago
  Let alone the transmission lines totally catching fire after a 10X output increase.
  - Gud 1y ago
    Where are you getting this information from? Although I’m hardly an expert on power lines(my factory produces HV switchgear), a 1s short circuit current rating of 10x(actually more) is normal, standard to IEC norms.
outside1234 1y ago
What batteries CAN do however is go from 0W to their capacity watts in milliseconds. It is their instant-on ability that is disruptive.
- IndrekR 1y ago
  Not only from 0W, but from negative capacity (max charging power) to positive capacity (max discharging power).
pjc50 1y ago
> Spinning generators can easily briefly go to 10x the rated current for a second or so to smooth out big anomalies. I'm very suspicious of this, because it would also imply 10x overcurrent on the associated transmission gear. There's limits on how much you can overcurrent a transformer before the core magnetically saturates, for example. Also I would expect protection systems to trip out at such a huge divergence from rated current. Do we have a citation?

xwolfi 1y ago

But Australia is tiny: 27M people. Just Spain is twice as big, and the European grid serves 500M people, we don't have the same problems, and probably can't solve them with the Australian solutions.

laurencerowe 1y ago
I wouldn't dismiss lessons from Australia. It has slightly higher electricity consumption than Spain (273 vs 265TWh/annually [1].) And there are limited interconnections to France [2]: > That problem may not have been entirely Spain’s fault, El País said. “Interconnections with the rest of the continent continue to be much fewer than the European Commission recommends, not because Spain isn’t interested, but because France has for years resisted expanding them.” [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_electricity_consumption https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_electrici... [2] https://www.theenergymix.com/massive-blackout-in-spain-shows-need-for-grid-investment-battery-storage-experts-say/ https://www.theenergymix.com/massive-blackout-in-spain-shows...
- bigbacaloa 1y ago
  [dead]

cyberax 1y ago

> Completely solved with lithium based grid storage at key locations btw. That's because Australia has a moderate amount of renewables and prefers to burn fossil fuels. Right now, around 25% of the electricity in Australia is generated by solar or wind. Spain is past 50% of renewable generation, and their problems are much bigger.

AnotherGoodName 1y ago
The state where this was occurring before the battery build out is over 70% renewables. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_in_South_Australia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_in_South_Australia