6 ms·

Charter the Seasteader I

64 points by pelle 14y ago

davidw 14y ago
I am not really aligned with their world view, but they definitely get big credit for trying, and also trying in a way that's sort of an "MVP". I wish them luck.
Sambdala 14y ago
Even though this specific ship is not something I'm really interested in, I'm excited to see what iteration 5 or 10 will look like. Also, even if the institute/project is filled with a lot of people commonly thought of as nutjobs, I wouldn't bet against Peter Thiel in many areas.
jcfrei 14y ago
seasteading communities — floating cities — which will allow the next generation of pioneers to peacefully test new ideas for government there's a lot of marketing mumbo jumbo on the site, but I really support their premise (and frankly I would pull off something similar if I had the funds). from what I understand, they are trying to offer a research center in international waters, free from any national restrictions. I believe it's very unfortunate that we live in a time where basic democratic processes and the deliberations of a bunch of (mostly) law students decide which kind of research is permissible and which is not. this shouldn't be in the hand of a bunch of politicians but rather a dedicated and separate ethic commission. if governments don't adapt we'll (hopefully) see more such projects.
- michaelt 14y ago
  Are you thinking of any types of research in particular? If you're thinking of human embryonic stem cell research, I'd have thought a research facility in Britain or Australia would be simpler than a research facility on a boat in international waters.
  - jcfrei 14y ago
    by any means you're still quite limited in the uk: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2008/22/contents http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2008/22/contents
- derekp7 14y ago
  The thing is, I don't see how this gets around government restrictions. From what I understand, a ship has to sail under the flag of some existing country, otherwise it is a pirate ship and subject to coercion by any country's navy. So the laws of whatever flag it is operating under will apply to that ship.
  - jcfrei 14y ago
    interesting - honestly I'm not familiar with maritime laws in the different countries. however enforcement by the navy seems much more unlikely than by local police forces (depending on the flag you're sailing under).
  - glenra 14y ago
    The main benefit is jurisdictional arbitrage - you get to pick whatever flag imposes the least restrictions on whatever use is most important to you. Unlike on land, on a ship if your assigned "country" becomes too oppressive you are free to change it without changing where you live/work. Since flagging countries get paid a small amount (and gain a small amount of status) by virtue of their flagged vessels and have no physical territorial claim over them, flagging countries have more incentive to be generally agreeable than do territorial governments. So simply "sailing under a flag" gets you quite a lot of the potential benefit of seasteading. Sailing without a flag is something to think about in the far distant future but not really worth worrying about for now. There are oodles of business models that could make use of this today. Right now, the only one that's really been tried is "day gambling cruise" - sail out of a port where gambling is illegal, gamble once outside the relevant imaginary lines, sail back into port. But there's lots of other business-space to explore, like medical cruises. Currently many Americans fly to Germany to get medical operations that aren't yet approved here or fly to India to get medical care that is far less expensive than here. Those who live near a port city might save money and time accomplishing the same end - cheaper, more flexible care - by shuttling out to an offshore floating hospital.
  - etherael 14y ago
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_convenience http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_convenience
anateus 14y ago
I've been a supporter of the institute for a while now, and one of the things I really appreciate about their approach is incrementalism. Build in small individually viable steps that let you evaluate both the underlying assumptions and the optimal direction to take from there. This steady approach makes me much more confident in them than previous similar ventures.
- billswift 14y ago
  I participated in their forums for a few months several years ago, but I quit bothering because they are not particularly incremental. As one of their references, Jon Fisher's The Last Frontiers on Earth, points out, one of the things pioneers have always had to deal with is leaving behind some of the comforts of home. They seem to think they are going to start out with all the comforts of a city, or at least an "edge city" suburb; it's not going to happen, they'll just keep on daydreaming.
  - anateus 14y ago
    I honestly don't know how representative the forums are, I've mostly helped out a bit with the conferences and interact with current and former board members in person fairly frequently. My sense is that the desire to have as many comforts as possible is to attract a varied initial core. From the very beginning the aims were to get the people who are super into, and then build-up. But if you don't have sufficient social infrastructure you're going to end up only with the hardcore who don't serve as a useful seed for a growing system. I think they're trying to skip the true frontiersmen, those folks are already living aboard their boats. They're trying to enable the homesteaders that come after them, and from whom settlements grow and expand.
stcredzero 14y ago
There was once a proposal for an offshore incubator/co-working facility that would help individuals get around visa difficulties. EDIT: Whoever flagged the question of the comment below went a bit too far. What in the world is wrong with someone asking, "How would that work, exactly?" (Aside from the imagined tone of voice, which can be interpreted in both a positive and negative light.) There was an idea that people would work in international waters, but within close reach of meetings ashore. (Which they could attend on tourist visas.)
- eugenes 14y ago
  And how would that work exactly?
- glenra 14y ago
  That is indeed one of the ideas has been promoted by the Seasteading Institute. The spinoff company now pushing that plan is called Blueseed; they expect to have a ship in 2013-2014, but the ship they use will probably be bigger and more residential-ish than this one. Here's their site: http://blueseed.co/ http://blueseed.co/
- saurik 14y ago
  (That comment wasn't flagged: that entire user account seems to be hellbanned as of over a week ago, so every post that the user makes is automatically deleted; flagging a comment does not simply cause it to be immediately deleted.)
_csoz 14y ago
Isn't there another way to find some place on earth (preferably an island) that will be outside international conventions? Wouldn't that be more viable and cheaper than seasteading? I wonder if there have been attempts to do something like that in collaboration with some government. Regardless, this could be a profound experiment. If something good comes out of it, people will demand changes in world governance. (We ran out of governance ideas after the last french revolution) It's important for the institute to be completely transparent about what is being conducted there (legal or not), or else people are going to turn against it.
- ceejayoz 14y ago
  > Isn't there another way to find some place on earth (preferably an island) that will be outside international conventions? Wouldn't that be more viable and cheaper than seasteading? I wonder if there have been attempts to do something like that in collaboration with some government. It has been tried. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Minerva http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Minerva Tonga forced them off the newly created island with a couple soldiers, and now they and Fiji are disputing which one of them owns it.
- jcfrei 14y ago
  there are a few pieces of unclaimed (or disputed) land left: the largest patch by far is: Marie Byrd Land ( a part of west Antarctica). because of the hostile conditions there you might be better off with with "seastanding".
- ixacto 14y ago
  A modest proposal for the establishment of an libertarian state: Well there is Antarctica or Somalia. Unless there is a radical new technology that allows us to control the weather, Antarctica is out. Somalia is a possibility though, for some libertarians to set up shop there. I don't think there is much industry in Somalia though, maybe a couple alliances with local war-lords? Then you would just have to cordon off an area by the coast, hire some child laborers to mine the area you wanted, put up some barriers and razor wire, and BAM we have a Randian paradise. Now we need hookers, industrially-produced Meth/Heroin/PCP/MDMA/Ganja along with every other drug available at the local quickimart. Mabey make a deal with a couple Chinese companies to build a deep-water port complex for their railroad out of central Africa to terminate at. Hire Blackwater/Xe/Academi/? trained fighters to defend the place. Who knows after a couple years you could develop it to look like Southern California and maybe attract some Arab princes to come down on from the Gulf on Holiday. Oh wait, this is totally crazy and is something drunken Randian college kids talk about. There is a damn good reason that SF and NYC are as successful as they are even with the high taxes and corruption: they have kick-ass universities, established business networks, and are major population centers.
patdennis 14y ago
we work to enable seasteading communities — floating cities — which will allow the next generation of pioneers to peacefully test new ideas for government. It's an interesting idea. I don't see why a small oceangoing socialist or libertarian or whatever community wouldn't be viable. The key would be the fact that they're made up of a small self selecting group. It's much easier for a group of like minded people to get along than for a much larger and diverse nation to do so.
confluence 14y ago
> There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. -- John Rogers Suppose we should add ships without laws to the list. The entire Sea Steading concept makes no sense. 1: International waters do have laws and you are subject to them and the flag you fly under. 2: If there were no laws you had to live under - why don't you think criminals would already be using these to have drug or arms sales? Oh yeah - it's because you are still subject to laws like everyone else. 3: Let's say you have a ship with no laws - what's to stop someone from killing you and taking your stuff? Who is going the enforce those rights? I government like entity? I thought we were libertarians here! 4: What happens in the case of an emergency? Do you rely on other governments to bail you out? Will you help the people on your boat - I mean what is the return on saving someone else's life? Who's responsible for the screw up? What about medical treatment? Do you not treat a guy who can't pay but has a festering open wound you could easily fix? Libertarianism - just like this Steading initiative - is a fairy tale for nerds that does not work in reality. But hey - a fella' can dream can't he? Successful business people are like children, give them too much freedom, and they'll pollute the heck out of you given half a chance. Governments are like adults, wield too much power and you beat the innovation out of the kids with authoritarian regimes. You need both and you need good relationships between them - neither is better or worse than the other - they're just people.
- steve19 14y ago
  People go overseas to legally participate in activities illegal in their home country all the time. > 1: International waters do have laws and you are subject to them and the flag you fly under. Then don't fly a flag. This will restrict what ports and territorial waters you can visit (if any?) and also mean you cannot expect any help if attacked by pirates, so you will need to provide your own security. > 2 ... why don't you think criminals would already be using these to have drug or arms sales? How exactly do you think criminals transport drugs and illegal weapons? By sea of course. They do not get harassed until they are within the territorial waters of a country where such activities are illegal. The exception in this case is ships breaking international law (violating embargoes, transporting illegal nuke material etc.) which are fair game. But why would a criminal start a meth lab on a ship? Much easier and cheaper to get a trailer in the woods, or a factory in Mexico. > 3: Let's say you have a ship with no laws ... government like entity Yes. But it would be a government anyone can opt into and opt out of at any time. > 4. What happens in the case of an emergency? In an emergency: SHTF. Everyone who is onboard these ships will know the risks and decide if the reward is good enough.
mkopinsky 14y ago
I hate to be "that guy", but the floating social media buttons are horribly distracting. Please get rid of them.
- cabalamat 14y ago
  I just put an xterm over them.
Aloisius 14y ago
You have to love libertarians and their utopian fantasies. It is often a surprise that any of them have become (or remain) wealthy without government support, regulations or laws. Oh wait. Seriously though, someone must see the irony in libertarians starting an ocean commune.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]

64 points by pelle 14y ago

I am not really aligned with their world view, but they definitely get big credit for trying, and also trying in a way that's sort of an "MVP". I wish them luck.

Sambdala 14y ago

Even though this specific ship is not something I'm really interested in, I'm excited to see what iteration 5 or 10 will look like. Also, even if the institute/project is filled with a lot of people commonly thought of as nutjobs, I wouldn't bet against Peter Thiel in many areas.

jcfrei 14y ago

seasteading communities — floating cities — which will allow the next generation of pioneers to peacefully test new ideas for government there's a lot of marketing mumbo jumbo on the site, but I really support their premise (and frankly I would pull off something similar if I had the funds). from what I understand, they are trying to offer a research center in international waters, free from any national restrictions. I believe it's very unfortunate that we live in a time where basic democratic processes and the deliberations of a bunch of (mostly) law students decide which kind of research is permissible and which is not. this shouldn't be in the hand of a bunch of politicians but rather a dedicated and separate ethic commission. if governments don't adapt we'll (hopefully) see more such projects.

michaelt 14y ago
Are you thinking of any types of research in particular? If you're thinking of human embryonic stem cell research, I'd have thought a research facility in Britain or Australia would be simpler than a research facility on a boat in international waters.
- jcfrei 14y ago
  by any means you're still quite limited in the uk: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2008/22/contents http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2008/22/contents
derekp7 14y ago
The thing is, I don't see how this gets around government restrictions. From what I understand, a ship has to sail under the flag of some existing country, otherwise it is a pirate ship and subject to coercion by any country's navy. So the laws of whatever flag it is operating under will apply to that ship.
- jcfrei 14y ago
  interesting - honestly I'm not familiar with maritime laws in the different countries. however enforcement by the navy seems much more unlikely than by local police forces (depending on the flag you're sailing under).
- glenra 14y ago
  The main benefit is jurisdictional arbitrage - you get to pick whatever flag imposes the least restrictions on whatever use is most important to you. Unlike on land, on a ship if your assigned "country" becomes too oppressive you are free to change it without changing where you live/work. Since flagging countries get paid a small amount (and gain a small amount of status) by virtue of their flagged vessels and have no physical territorial claim over them, flagging countries have more incentive to be generally agreeable than do territorial governments. So simply "sailing under a flag" gets you quite a lot of the potential benefit of seasteading. Sailing without a flag is something to think about in the far distant future but not really worth worrying about for now. There are oodles of business models that could make use of this today. Right now, the only one that's really been tried is "day gambling cruise" - sail out of a port where gambling is illegal, gamble once outside the relevant imaginary lines, sail back into port. But there's lots of other business-space to explore, like medical cruises. Currently many Americans fly to Germany to get medical operations that aren't yet approved here or fly to India to get medical care that is far less expensive than here. Those who live near a port city might save money and time accomplishing the same end - cheaper, more flexible care - by shuttling out to an offshore floating hospital.
- etherael 14y ago
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_convenience http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_convenience

anateus 14y ago

I've been a supporter of the institute for a while now, and one of the things I really appreciate about their approach is incrementalism. Build in small individually viable steps that let you evaluate both the underlying assumptions and the optimal direction to take from there. This steady approach makes me much more confident in them than previous similar ventures.

billswift 14y ago
I participated in their forums for a few months several years ago, but I quit bothering because they are not particularly incremental. As one of their references, Jon Fisher's The Last Frontiers on Earth, points out, one of the things pioneers have always had to deal with is leaving behind some of the comforts of home. They seem to think they are going to start out with all the comforts of a city, or at least an "edge city" suburb; it's not going to happen, they'll just keep on daydreaming.
- anateus 14y ago
  I honestly don't know how representative the forums are, I've mostly helped out a bit with the conferences and interact with current and former board members in person fairly frequently. My sense is that the desire to have as many comforts as possible is to attract a varied initial core. From the very beginning the aims were to get the people who are super into, and then build-up. But if you don't have sufficient social infrastructure you're going to end up only with the hardcore who don't serve as a useful seed for a growing system. I think they're trying to skip the true frontiersmen, those folks are already living aboard their boats. They're trying to enable the homesteaders that come after them, and from whom settlements grow and expand.

stcredzero 14y ago

There was once a proposal for an offshore incubator/co-working facility that would help individuals get around visa difficulties. EDIT: Whoever flagged the question of the comment below went a bit too far. What in the world is wrong with someone asking, "How would that work, exactly?" (Aside from the imagined tone of voice, which can be interpreted in both a positive and negative light.) There was an idea that people would work in international waters, but within close reach of meetings ashore. (Which they could attend on tourist visas.)

eugenes 14y ago
And how would that work exactly?
glenra 14y ago
That is indeed one of the ideas has been promoted by the Seasteading Institute. The spinoff company now pushing that plan is called Blueseed; they expect to have a ship in 2013-2014, but the ship they use will probably be bigger and more residential-ish than this one. Here's their site: http://blueseed.co/ http://blueseed.co/
saurik 14y ago
(That comment wasn't flagged: that entire user account seems to be hellbanned as of over a week ago, so every post that the user makes is automatically deleted; flagging a comment does not simply cause it to be immediately deleted.)

_csoz 14y ago

Isn't there another way to find some place on earth (preferably an island) that will be outside international conventions? Wouldn't that be more viable and cheaper than seasteading? I wonder if there have been attempts to do something like that in collaboration with some government. Regardless, this could be a profound experiment. If something good comes out of it, people will demand changes in world governance. (We ran out of governance ideas after the last french revolution) It's important for the institute to be completely transparent about what is being conducted there (legal or not), or else people are going to turn against it.

ceejayoz 14y ago
> Isn't there another way to find some place on earth (preferably an island) that will be outside international conventions? Wouldn't that be more viable and cheaper than seasteading? I wonder if there have been attempts to do something like that in collaboration with some government. It has been tried. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Minerva http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Minerva Tonga forced them off the newly created island with a couple soldiers, and now they and Fiji are disputing which one of them owns it.
jcfrei 14y ago
there are a few pieces of unclaimed (or disputed) land left: the largest patch by far is: Marie Byrd Land ( a part of west Antarctica). because of the hostile conditions there you might be better off with with "seastanding".
ixacto 14y ago
A modest proposal for the establishment of an libertarian state: Well there is Antarctica or Somalia. Unless there is a radical new technology that allows us to control the weather, Antarctica is out. Somalia is a possibility though, for some libertarians to set up shop there. I don't think there is much industry in Somalia though, maybe a couple alliances with local war-lords? Then you would just have to cordon off an area by the coast, hire some child laborers to mine the area you wanted, put up some barriers and razor wire, and BAM we have a Randian paradise. Now we need hookers, industrially-produced Meth/Heroin/PCP/MDMA/Ganja along with every other drug available at the local quickimart. Mabey make a deal with a couple Chinese companies to build a deep-water port complex for their railroad out of central Africa to terminate at. Hire Blackwater/Xe/Academi/? trained fighters to defend the place. Who knows after a couple years you could develop it to look like Southern California and maybe attract some Arab princes to come down on from the Gulf on Holiday. Oh wait, this is totally crazy and is something drunken Randian college kids talk about. There is a damn good reason that SF and NYC are as successful as they are even with the high taxes and corruption: they have kick-ass universities, established business networks, and are major population centers.

patdennis 14y ago

we work to enable seasteading communities — floating cities — which will allow the next generation of pioneers to peacefully test new ideas for government. It's an interesting idea. I don't see why a small oceangoing socialist or libertarian or whatever community wouldn't be viable. The key would be the fact that they're made up of a small self selecting group. It's much easier for a group of like minded people to get along than for a much larger and diverse nation to do so.

confluence 14y ago

> There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. -- John Rogers Suppose we should add ships without laws to the list. The entire Sea Steading concept makes no sense. 1: International waters do have laws and you are subject to them and the flag you fly under. 2: If there were no laws you had to live under - why don't you think criminals would already be using these to have drug or arms sales? Oh yeah - it's because you are still subject to laws like everyone else. 3: Let's say you have a ship with no laws - what's to stop someone from killing you and taking your stuff? Who is going the enforce those rights? I government like entity? I thought we were libertarians here! 4: What happens in the case of an emergency? Do you rely on other governments to bail you out? Will you help the people on your boat - I mean what is the return on saving someone else's life? Who's responsible for the screw up? What about medical treatment? Do you not treat a guy who can't pay but has a festering open wound you could easily fix? Libertarianism - just like this Steading initiative - is a fairy tale for nerds that does not work in reality. But hey - a fella' can dream can't he? Successful business people are like children, give them too much freedom, and they'll pollute the heck out of you given half a chance. Governments are like adults, wield too much power and you beat the innovation out of the kids with authoritarian regimes. You need both and you need good relationships between them - neither is better or worse than the other - they're just people.

steve19 14y ago
People go overseas to legally participate in activities illegal in their home country all the time. > 1: International waters do have laws and you are subject to them and the flag you fly under. Then don't fly a flag. This will restrict what ports and territorial waters you can visit (if any?) and also mean you cannot expect any help if attacked by pirates, so you will need to provide your own security. > 2 ... why don't you think criminals would already be using these to have drug or arms sales? How exactly do you think criminals transport drugs and illegal weapons? By sea of course. They do not get harassed until they are within the territorial waters of a country where such activities are illegal. The exception in this case is ships breaking international law (violating embargoes, transporting illegal nuke material etc.) which are fair game. But why would a criminal start a meth lab on a ship? Much easier and cheaper to get a trailer in the woods, or a factory in Mexico. > 3: Let's say you have a ship with no laws ... government like entity Yes. But it would be a government anyone can opt into and opt out of at any time. > 4. What happens in the case of an emergency? In an emergency: SHTF. Everyone who is onboard these ships will know the risks and decide if the reward is good enough.

mkopinsky 14y ago

I hate to be "that guy", but the floating social media buttons are horribly distracting. Please get rid of them.

cabalamat 14y ago
I just put an xterm over them.

Aloisius 14y ago

You have to love libertarians and their utopian fantasies. It is often a surprise that any of them have become (or remain) wealthy without government support, regulations or laws. Oh wait. Seriously though, someone must see the irony in libertarians starting an ocean commune.

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]