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When will the EU do the same for cars? There's no need for individual low cost parts to be integrated fused together as modules super expensive to replace. Not

When will the EU do the same for cars? There's no need for individual low cost parts to be integrated fused together as modules super expensive to replace. Not just German ICE cars, but I follow what EV Clinic is doing and it's making my blood boil on how poorly designed against cheap and easy repairability EVs are. Feels like this is the bigger environmental and societal issue than phones and tablets.

zejn 1y ago
This is not the same issue you are talking about. Cars are repairable, phones are not, this is why this regulation is coming about. There are modules that need replacement in whole, but same is true for this regulation regarding to phones: display and touchscreen modules are replaced as whole, not per component. Not great, but not too shabby, given the only other choice was to toss it. The bigger part is manufacturers have to provide OS support for 5 years after the last phone was sold.
- 627467 1y ago
  > This is not the same issue you are talking about. > Cars are repairable, phones are not, this is why this regulation is coming about Anything is repairable given enough resources. It's very obvious electronics are targeted but not cars as protection for local manufacturers biz models.
- FirmwareBurner 1y ago
  >This is not the same issue you are talking about. You're right, car repairability is an even bigger issue than phones. >Cars are repairable, phones are not New cars are repairable only by the authorized dealer, with authorize parts and tools, and those parts are maliciously engineered as modules where for a 2$ defective connector the dealer will replace a 1000$ module and electrical harness because they don't sell the 2$ connector separately, they sell the whole thing as a module/kit. How is that not anti consumer and anti environment? If my phone breaks and can't easily fix it, I can buy a new one for 200$, or keep my old one as a backup until I figure out something. Meanwhile if my car breaks, I can't buy a new car on a whim, and most people also can't afford to keep a backup car around. This is a WAY bigger issues than non repairable phones. A defective car is a much bigger household expense than a broken smartphone.
  - Jensson 1y ago
    > New cars are repairable only by the authorized dealer, with authorize parts and tools You can change tires and oil without going to an authorized dealer for all the cars I know. You couldn't do the equivalent for some phones, like changing battery or screen.
    - FirmwareBurner 1y ago
      Phones don't need oil changes. We're talking about things that break not regular maintenance. Even if your battery degrades you can still get a power bank, it's a popular cheap workaround that works well, it's not such a life or death issue as some people make it be. But a broken down car can be for many people.
pif 1y ago
Unfortunately, among all the wonders the European Union has brought to us, the cars is where it failed in my opinion. Cheap cars are not permitted any more in the EU. Lots and lots of non-essential electronics are required to satisfy European norms, and you putting your hands on your car is frowned upon.
- phoronixrly 1y ago
  If by 'putting your hands on your car' you mean deleting your catalytic converter, EGR, DPF, DEF, or tuning your engine so that it has worse fuel economy or better fuel economy but worse emissions, then yes, and rightly so. I would also argue that these features are essential if you use your car on public roads, especially in the tightly packed European cities (where you get low-emission zones with nice hefty fines if you enter them with a vehicle that doesn't adhere to them). The only failure I see is not enforcing the GDPR on auto vendors, and cars being surveillance machines with no way to opt-out ( https://www.mozillafoundation.org/en/privacynotincluded/articles/its-official-cars-are-the-worst-product-category-we-have-ever-reviewed-for-privacy/ https://www.mozillafoundation.org/en/privacynotincluded/arti... ). Edit: right to repair as well.
  - jeroenhd 1y ago
    Some mandatory systems are unnecessary and drive up the cost of new cars, though. Things like backup cameras, adaptive cruise control, and lane assist add very little to road safety (research has even shown that people relying on these features even start paying less attention on the road), but are mandatory. Safety features that are easier to defend (automatic emergency braking, driver fatigue detection, driver distraction warning systems, black boxes, tire pressure monitors, "intelligent speed assistance", oncoming vehicle detection) are also adding a whole heap of electronics to cars that drive up the base price of any vehicle. Then there were the inherent privacy risks when the EU wanted to introduce mandatory, automated SOS call functionality ("eCall") on crashes (because their mobile modems are basically tracking devices you're not allowed to remove) but the requirements were altered to keep the modem off under non-crash circumstances. You can't rip out the touch screen of your car and replace it with physical buttons unless you also figure out how to make the reversing camera work. Modifications to the outside of your car may also be a challenge because you need to keep the lane assist system working or your car won't pass the mandatory safety inspections. I'm in favour of most new safety systems, but EU regulations seem to be making some very strange choices in this regard that make it impossible for newcomers to have even a remote chance of coming to market. The rules are excluding a whole bunch of Chinese and Indian cars (on purpose), but also stifling competition from new EU manufacturers.
aitchnyu 1y ago
Hope carmakers are forced to give 15 years warranty. Current Japanese models can meet it. They could use accelerometers to reduce warranties for track and heavy offroad use and let the driver know they are warranted for 5100 instead of 5475 days. And they should publish costs and time for various body repairs like slow rear ending, swipes etc. Sure, it will make cars slower and uglier but give more peace of mind.
- hagbard_c 1y ago
  ...and before you know it you're in Red Barchetta [1,2] territory [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Barchetta https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Barchetta [2] http://www.fiatbarchetta.com/links/nice.html http://www.fiatbarchetta.com/links/nice.html
JdeBP 1y ago
You are looking at the wrong legislation. Coincidentally, or perhaps not, Ashton Schottler was discussing the E.U. right to repair legislation this last weekend. * https://youtube.com/watch?v=K_lAdaecL30&t=484 https://youtube.com/watch?v=K_lAdaecL30&t=484

zejn 1y ago

This is not the same issue you are talking about. Cars are repairable, phones are not, this is why this regulation is coming about. There are modules that need replacement in whole, but same is true for this regulation regarding to phones: display and touchscreen modules are replaced as whole, not per component. Not great, but not too shabby, given the only other choice was to toss it. The bigger part is manufacturers have to provide OS support for 5 years after the last phone was sold.

627467 1y ago
> This is not the same issue you are talking about. > Cars are repairable, phones are not, this is why this regulation is coming about Anything is repairable given enough resources. It's very obvious electronics are targeted but not cars as protection for local manufacturers biz models.
FirmwareBurner 1y ago
>This is not the same issue you are talking about. You're right, car repairability is an even bigger issue than phones. >Cars are repairable, phones are not New cars are repairable only by the authorized dealer, with authorize parts and tools, and those parts are maliciously engineered as modules where for a 2$ defective connector the dealer will replace a 1000$ module and electrical harness because they don't sell the 2$ connector separately, they sell the whole thing as a module/kit. How is that not anti consumer and anti environment? If my phone breaks and can't easily fix it, I can buy a new one for 200$, or keep my old one as a backup until I figure out something. Meanwhile if my car breaks, I can't buy a new car on a whim, and most people also can't afford to keep a backup car around. This is a WAY bigger issues than non repairable phones. A defective car is a much bigger household expense than a broken smartphone.
- Jensson 1y ago
  > New cars are repairable only by the authorized dealer, with authorize parts and tools You can change tires and oil without going to an authorized dealer for all the cars I know. You couldn't do the equivalent for some phones, like changing battery or screen.
  - FirmwareBurner 1y ago
    Phones don't need oil changes. We're talking about things that break not regular maintenance. Even if your battery degrades you can still get a power bank, it's a popular cheap workaround that works well, it's not such a life or death issue as some people make it be. But a broken down car can be for many people.

pif 1y ago

Unfortunately, among all the wonders the European Union has brought to us, the cars is where it failed in my opinion. Cheap cars are not permitted any more in the EU. Lots and lots of non-essential electronics are required to satisfy European norms, and you putting your hands on your car is frowned upon.

phoronixrly 1y ago
If by 'putting your hands on your car' you mean deleting your catalytic converter, EGR, DPF, DEF, or tuning your engine so that it has worse fuel economy or better fuel economy but worse emissions, then yes, and rightly so. I would also argue that these features are essential if you use your car on public roads, especially in the tightly packed European cities (where you get low-emission zones with nice hefty fines if you enter them with a vehicle that doesn't adhere to them). The only failure I see is not enforcing the GDPR on auto vendors, and cars being surveillance machines with no way to opt-out ( https://www.mozillafoundation.org/en/privacynotincluded/articles/its-official-cars-are-the-worst-product-category-we-have-ever-reviewed-for-privacy/ https://www.mozillafoundation.org/en/privacynotincluded/arti... ). Edit: right to repair as well.
- jeroenhd 1y ago
  Some mandatory systems are unnecessary and drive up the cost of new cars, though. Things like backup cameras, adaptive cruise control, and lane assist add very little to road safety (research has even shown that people relying on these features even start paying less attention on the road), but are mandatory. Safety features that are easier to defend (automatic emergency braking, driver fatigue detection, driver distraction warning systems, black boxes, tire pressure monitors, "intelligent speed assistance", oncoming vehicle detection) are also adding a whole heap of electronics to cars that drive up the base price of any vehicle. Then there were the inherent privacy risks when the EU wanted to introduce mandatory, automated SOS call functionality ("eCall") on crashes (because their mobile modems are basically tracking devices you're not allowed to remove) but the requirements were altered to keep the modem off under non-crash circumstances. You can't rip out the touch screen of your car and replace it with physical buttons unless you also figure out how to make the reversing camera work. Modifications to the outside of your car may also be a challenge because you need to keep the lane assist system working or your car won't pass the mandatory safety inspections. I'm in favour of most new safety systems, but EU regulations seem to be making some very strange choices in this regard that make it impossible for newcomers to have even a remote chance of coming to market. The rules are excluding a whole bunch of Chinese and Indian cars (on purpose), but also stifling competition from new EU manufacturers.

aitchnyu 1y ago

Hope carmakers are forced to give 15 years warranty. Current Japanese models can meet it. They could use accelerometers to reduce warranties for track and heavy offroad use and let the driver know they are warranted for 5100 instead of 5475 days. And they should publish costs and time for various body repairs like slow rear ending, swipes etc. Sure, it will make cars slower and uglier but give more peace of mind.

hagbard_c 1y ago
...and before you know it you're in Red Barchetta [1,2] territory [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Barchetta https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Barchetta [2] http://www.fiatbarchetta.com/links/nice.html http://www.fiatbarchetta.com/links/nice.html

JdeBP 1y ago

You are looking at the wrong legislation. Coincidentally, or perhaps not, Ashton Schottler was discussing the E.U. right to repair legislation this last weekend. * https://youtube.com/watch?v=K_lAdaecL30&t=484 https://youtube.com/watch?v=K_lAdaecL30&t=484