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I think it would turn off, no shocker there. I'm not sure what you mean, can you elaborate? When I say autonomous I don't mean some high-falutin philosophical

I think it would turn off, no shocker there. I'm not sure what you mean, can you elaborate? When I say autonomous I don't mean some high-falutin philosophical concept, I just mean it does stuff on it's own.

cess11 1y ago
Right, but it doesn't. It stops once you stop forcing it to do stuff.
- viraptor 1y ago
  Because that's what they're created to do. You can make a system which runs continuously. It's not a tech limitation, just how we preferred things to work so far.
  - cess11 1y ago
    Maybe, but that's not the case here so it is lost on me why you bring it up.
    - viraptor 1y ago
      You're making claims about those systems not being autonomous. When we want to, we create them to be autonomous. It's got nothing to do with agency or survival instincts. Experiments like that have been done for years now - for example https://techcrunch.com/2023/04/10/researchers-populated-a-tiny-virtual-town-with-ai-and-it-was-very-wholesome/ https://techcrunch.com/2023/04/10/researchers-populated-a-ti...
      - cess11 1y ago
        Yes, because they aren't. Against your fantasy that some might be brought into existence sometime in the future I present my own fantasy that there won't be.
        viraptor 1y ago
        I linked you an experiment with multiple autonomous agents operating continuously. It's already happened. It's really not clear what you're disagreeing with here.
        cess11 1y ago
        No, that was a simulation, akin to Conway's cellular automata. You seem to consider being fully under someone else's control to qualify as autonomy, at least in certain casees, which to me comes across as very bizarre.
        viraptor 1y ago
        You seem to be taking about some kind of free will and perfect independence, not autonomy as normally understood. Agents can have autonomy within the environment they have access to. We talk about autonomous vehicles for example, where we want them to still stay within some action boundaries. Otherwise we'd be discussing metaphysics. It's not like we can cross physical/body boundaries just because we've got autonomy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autonomous_robot https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autonomous_robot > An autonomous robot is a robot that acts without recourse to human control. Historic examples include space probes. Modern examples include self-driving vacuums and cars. The same idea is used for agents - they're autonomous because they independently choose actions with a specific or vague goal.
        cess11 1y ago
        I don't see the relevance of things that carry their own power supply either, and I still disagree that Conway automata and similar software exhibit autonomy. I did not mention "free will and perfect independence".
        viraptor 1y ago
        You also carry your own power supply... I could go into more details, but basically you tried to call out some weird use of "autonomous" when I'm using the meaning that's an industry standard. If you mean something else, you'll need to define it. Saying you can't be autonomous under someone's rules brings a serious number of issues to address, before you get to anything AI related.
- bubblyworld 1y ago
  I still don't understand your point, sorry. If it's a semantic nitpick about the meaning of "autonomous", I'm not interested - I've made my definition quite clear, and it has nothing to do with when agents stop doing things or what happens when they get turned off.
  - cess11 1y ago
    I think you should start caring about the meaning of words.
    - bubblyworld 1y ago
      I do, when I think it's relevant. Words don't have an absolute meaning - I've presented mine.
    - mystified5016 1y ago
      You're the one using words incorrectly. Everybody else agrees on what these words mean and you're insisting on your own made-up definitions. And then you throw a fit like a child when someone disagrees. You're wrong and you're behaving inappropriately.
      - cess11 1y ago
        No, I did not. It appears I'm rather alone in this setting to make a difference between automatic and autonomous. If immediate, direct dependence and autonomy are compatible, I want none of it.

cess11 1y ago

Right, but it doesn't. It stops once you stop forcing it to do stuff.

viraptor 1y ago
Because that's what they're created to do. You can make a system which runs continuously. It's not a tech limitation, just how we preferred things to work so far.
- cess11 1y ago
  Maybe, but that's not the case here so it is lost on me why you bring it up.
  - viraptor 1y ago
    You're making claims about those systems not being autonomous. When we want to, we create them to be autonomous. It's got nothing to do with agency or survival instincts. Experiments like that have been done for years now - for example https://techcrunch.com/2023/04/10/researchers-populated-a-tiny-virtual-town-with-ai-and-it-was-very-wholesome/ https://techcrunch.com/2023/04/10/researchers-populated-a-ti...
    - cess11 1y ago
      Yes, because they aren't. Against your fantasy that some might be brought into existence sometime in the future I present my own fantasy that there won't be.
      - viraptor 1y ago
        I linked you an experiment with multiple autonomous agents operating continuously. It's already happened. It's really not clear what you're disagreeing with here.
        cess11 1y ago
        No, that was a simulation, akin to Conway's cellular automata. You seem to consider being fully under someone else's control to qualify as autonomy, at least in certain casees, which to me comes across as very bizarre.
        viraptor 1y ago
        You seem to be taking about some kind of free will and perfect independence, not autonomy as normally understood. Agents can have autonomy within the environment they have access to. We talk about autonomous vehicles for example, where we want them to still stay within some action boundaries. Otherwise we'd be discussing metaphysics. It's not like we can cross physical/body boundaries just because we've got autonomy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autonomous_robot https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autonomous_robot > An autonomous robot is a robot that acts without recourse to human control. Historic examples include space probes. Modern examples include self-driving vacuums and cars. The same idea is used for agents - they're autonomous because they independently choose actions with a specific or vague goal.
        cess11 1y ago
        I don't see the relevance of things that carry their own power supply either, and I still disagree that Conway automata and similar software exhibit autonomy. I did not mention "free will and perfect independence".
        viraptor 1y ago
        You also carry your own power supply... I could go into more details, but basically you tried to call out some weird use of "autonomous" when I'm using the meaning that's an industry standard. If you mean something else, you'll need to define it. Saying you can't be autonomous under someone's rules brings a serious number of issues to address, before you get to anything AI related.
bubblyworld 1y ago
I still don't understand your point, sorry. If it's a semantic nitpick about the meaning of "autonomous", I'm not interested - I've made my definition quite clear, and it has nothing to do with when agents stop doing things or what happens when they get turned off.
- cess11 1y ago
  I think you should start caring about the meaning of words.
  - bubblyworld 1y ago
    I do, when I think it's relevant. Words don't have an absolute meaning - I've presented mine.
  - mystified5016 1y ago
    You're the one using words incorrectly. Everybody else agrees on what these words mean and you're insisting on your own made-up definitions. And then you throw a fit like a child when someone disagrees. You're wrong and you're behaving inappropriately.
    - cess11 1y ago
      No, I did not. It appears I'm rather alone in this setting to make a difference between automatic and autonomous. If immediate, direct dependence and autonomy are compatible, I want none of it.