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Your implying that self taught developers are unable to comprehend basic parts of computer science is really an over generalization, I and many of my co-workers

Your implying that self taught developers are unable to comprehend basic parts of computer science is really an over generalization, I and many of my co-workers are self taught and we often find that graduates, whilst being intelligent and understanding the more esoteric areas of the profession, are unable to understand certain ideas as 'time is money, don't do it cool when a simpler way will work just as well' and are also incapable of understanding how to monetize aspects of a code base. It's all well and good being self taught or university educated, but inevitably you need a mix of both disciplinary aspects to be able to function properly within a company.

trekkin 14y ago
I am not implying in any way that self-taught developers are unable of anything. I know a lot of great self-taught developers. However, many developers without formal CS training learn one or two technologies (e.g. ruby or another web framework) and believe this is enough; they even call themselves "hackers". That last approach surprised me.
- shanelja 14y ago
  I think the same applies for everyone, you have to expand your horizons unless the company you work for is extremely locked down on technologies. Everyone should know a few languages so they have the tools they need to do their job properly, would we use a chainsaw to screw something to a wall just because we hadn't learned how to use a screwdriver yet?
drunkpotato 14y ago
Yes, it's exactly that attitude he is arguing against. Then it falls to people who know what they're doing to clean up after the "just get it done" morons, when it turns out just getting it done means getting it done wrong and badly and slow. Management thinks "oh, it's already done, speeding it up should be an easy job, what's wrong with our new maintenance guys that they take so long to just fix it up?" I use the term morons advisedly, it is blunt and true, an accurate description of the "get it done" mentality of people with little experience and no formal training, who don't even know or acknowledge the depth of their ignorance and error.
- shanelja 14y ago
  I'm not saying to just 'get it done' because that is really misinterpreting what I said before, I'm saying that the low level, time intensive method is not always the best, especially when you need to push a project soon and time is really running out. Your insinuation that doing something quickly means doing it badly is, in my opinion, unfounded, being productive and speedy is merely a by product of knowing what you are doing.
  - drunkpotato 14y ago
    Fair enough. "Get it done" is a trigger phrase for me, so I responded in too personal an attack. There are many "get it done" morons out there, and I have worked with several, but that of course does not mean you are one. You recognize the inherent trade-offs involved, which I appreciate.
- swalsh 14y ago
  Surprise, both of you guys are needed! The "get it done" guy, is almost never the "do it right" guy. Some are closer to each other then others... but almost never are they the same guy. The thing is, when you're building that first prototype, the most important thing is getting it out there and proving the concept works! It doesn't matter if you build the perfect architecture that can scale effortlessly if in the end no one decides your product has value. Of course, I've been that guy who has to clean up too. That job sucks :( almost never is the product designed the way it eventually ends up being used.
  - drunkpotato 14y ago
    I have also been on the side of finishing a new product quickly and imperfectly, and I acknowledge the trade-offs involved. I rail against the "get it done" mind-set in quotes. I find that a programmer who prides themselves on getting it done is, more often than not, a "get it done" moron who means get it done badly. The kind of programmer who thinks "getting it done" means stabbing the code enough times that the bloody wounds congeal just enough to compile. They are not smart or experienced enough to know what they don't know.

trekkin 14y ago

I am not implying in any way that self-taught developers are unable of anything. I know a lot of great self-taught developers. However, many developers without formal CS training learn one or two technologies (e.g. ruby or another web framework) and believe this is enough; they even call themselves "hackers". That last approach surprised me.

shanelja 14y ago
I think the same applies for everyone, you have to expand your horizons unless the company you work for is extremely locked down on technologies. Everyone should know a few languages so they have the tools they need to do their job properly, would we use a chainsaw to screw something to a wall just because we hadn't learned how to use a screwdriver yet?

drunkpotato 14y ago

Yes, it's exactly that attitude he is arguing against. Then it falls to people who know what they're doing to clean up after the "just get it done" morons, when it turns out just getting it done means getting it done wrong and badly and slow. Management thinks "oh, it's already done, speeding it up should be an easy job, what's wrong with our new maintenance guys that they take so long to just fix it up?" I use the term morons advisedly, it is blunt and true, an accurate description of the "get it done" mentality of people with little experience and no formal training, who don't even know or acknowledge the depth of their ignorance and error.

shanelja 14y ago
I'm not saying to just 'get it done' because that is really misinterpreting what I said before, I'm saying that the low level, time intensive method is not always the best, especially when you need to push a project soon and time is really running out. Your insinuation that doing something quickly means doing it badly is, in my opinion, unfounded, being productive and speedy is merely a by product of knowing what you are doing.
- drunkpotato 14y ago
  Fair enough. "Get it done" is a trigger phrase for me, so I responded in too personal an attack. There are many "get it done" morons out there, and I have worked with several, but that of course does not mean you are one. You recognize the inherent trade-offs involved, which I appreciate.
swalsh 14y ago
Surprise, both of you guys are needed! The "get it done" guy, is almost never the "do it right" guy. Some are closer to each other then others... but almost never are they the same guy. The thing is, when you're building that first prototype, the most important thing is getting it out there and proving the concept works! It doesn't matter if you build the perfect architecture that can scale effortlessly if in the end no one decides your product has value. Of course, I've been that guy who has to clean up too. That job sucks :( almost never is the product designed the way it eventually ends up being used.
- drunkpotato 14y ago
  I have also been on the side of finishing a new product quickly and imperfectly, and I acknowledge the trade-offs involved. I rail against the "get it done" mind-set in quotes. I find that a programmer who prides themselves on getting it done is, more often than not, a "get it done" moron who means get it done badly. The kind of programmer who thinks "getting it done" means stabbing the code enough times that the bloody wounds congeal just enough to compile. They are not smart or experienced enough to know what they don't know.