3 ms·

It's not inaccessible. Its just that you don't have the reading skills from lack of use.

by tekla 1y ago

pfdietz 1y ago
Yes, I'm sure it all our faults, not that of the product.
- tekla 1y ago
  Yep, skills need to be practiced before you engage with harder material
  - pfdietz 1y ago
    Or, authors need to be subservient to the needs and desires of the customers.
    - antasvara 1y ago
      Around 54% of adults read at a 6th grade level or below: https://www.apmresearchlab.org/10x-adult-literacy https://www.apmresearchlab.org/10x-adult-literacy Based on this, you could reach both of these conclusions: 1. Most literary fiction is inaccessible to the average adult. 2. It's a big problem that even moderately complex novels are inaccessible to the average adult. The first statement (which I think is where you're coming from) is absolutely true. If you want to write a very popular book, it should be easily readable at a 6th grade level. The second statement is more a statement of values. Some people (such as myself) find it problematic that the average adult can't read/understand a book that is more complex than Harry Potter. You don't have to agree with the second statement. A lot of people don't. But I think understanding why someone might find that problematic is important. Personally, I think there are a lot of things worth knowing that can't be written at a 6th grade level.
      - protocolture 1y ago
        >In the US
    - trinix912 1y ago
      If their goal is to write bestsellers, sure. That's where the €5 leisure novels come from. OTOH, if their goal is to push boundaries or be original, being subservient to the desires of the customers is counterproductive.
mcnamaratw 1y ago
Don’t be a d**k. Lots of literary fiction is perfectly readable for normal humans. Lots of what isn’t accessible is just not that enjoyable to anybody. I’m happy to debate … but only using specific examples. Authors and titles. The example of noise music came up elsewhere in the discussion. It’s an important example. Most people won’t ever like it. You fill the pipeline with noise music, 99% of us will literally listen to anything else, or to nothing. I like a little bit of it, but in general I’m simply not going to acquire that taste.
- antasvara 1y ago
  >Lots of literary fiction is perfectly readable for normal humans. Lots of what isn’t accessible is just not that enjoyable to anybody. The PIAAC surveys, while imperfect, indirectly address what percentage of adults can read and appreciate "literary fiction." The first part of the definition of level 3: >Adults at Level 3 are able to construct meaning across larger chunks of text or perform multi-step operations in order to identify and formulate responses. They can identify, interpret or evaluate one or more pieces of information, often employing varying levels of inferencing. The first part for Level 4: >At level 4, adults can read long and dense texts presented on multiple pages in order to complete tasks that involve access, understanding, evaluation and reflection about the text(s) contents and sources across multiple processing cycles. Adults at this level can infer what the task is asking based on complex or implicit statements. Successful task completion often requires the production of knowledge-based inferences. The full definitions can be found here: https://nces.ed.gov/surveys/piaac/measure.asp https://nces.ed.gov/surveys/piaac/measure.asp Based on the full definitions, understanding the use of metaphor in a longer text probably sits in Level 4. A simple metaphor might sit in Level 3. Based on the recent survey results, only half of US adults read at Level 3 or above. Around 15% read at Level 4 or above. I invite you to look at this PowerPoint of sample questions for each level: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwjJlpLS2YWOAxUmFFkFHWMqAU8QFnoECBsQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fpiaac.squarespace.com%2Fs%2F7-Sample-Tasks113014AIRlogofinal12814.pptx&usg=AOvVaw3lah7y6G1lQ8P3jLKxa3vg&opi=89978449 https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwjJ... Based on that, what level of literacy do you think indicates someone capable of reading and enjoying literary fiction? I think the hypothetical cutoff is somewhere between Level 3 and 4. Based on all of this, let's use Sally Rooney's book "Normal People" as an example. If we're being super charitable, at most 50% of people would be able to read and comprehend that book. If we're being less charitable with our definition of "comprehension," I think we're probably looking at closer to 30% of people really understanding it.

It's not inaccessible. Its just that you don't have the reading skills from lack of use.

by tekla 1y ago

It's not inaccessible. Its just that you don't have the reading skills from lack of use.

pfdietz 1y ago

Yes, I'm sure it all our faults, not that of the product.

tekla 1y ago
Yep, skills need to be practiced before you engage with harder material
- pfdietz 1y ago
  Or, authors need to be subservient to the needs and desires of the customers.
  - antasvara 1y ago
    Around 54% of adults read at a 6th grade level or below: https://www.apmresearchlab.org/10x-adult-literacy https://www.apmresearchlab.org/10x-adult-literacy Based on this, you could reach both of these conclusions: 1. Most literary fiction is inaccessible to the average adult. 2. It's a big problem that even moderately complex novels are inaccessible to the average adult. The first statement (which I think is where you're coming from) is absolutely true. If you want to write a very popular book, it should be easily readable at a 6th grade level. The second statement is more a statement of values. Some people (such as myself) find it problematic that the average adult can't read/understand a book that is more complex than Harry Potter. You don't have to agree with the second statement. A lot of people don't. But I think understanding why someone might find that problematic is important. Personally, I think there are a lot of things worth knowing that can't be written at a 6th grade level.
    - protocolture 1y ago
      >In the US
  - trinix912 1y ago
    If their goal is to write bestsellers, sure. That's where the €5 leisure novels come from. OTOH, if their goal is to push boundaries or be original, being subservient to the desires of the customers is counterproductive.

mcnamaratw 1y ago

Don’t be a d**k. Lots of literary fiction is perfectly readable for normal humans. Lots of what isn’t accessible is just not that enjoyable to anybody. I’m happy to debate … but only using specific examples. Authors and titles. The example of noise music came up elsewhere in the discussion. It’s an important example. Most people won’t ever like it. You fill the pipeline with noise music, 99% of us will literally listen to anything else, or to nothing. I like a little bit of it, but in general I’m simply not going to acquire that taste.

antasvara 1y ago
>Lots of literary fiction is perfectly readable for normal humans. Lots of what isn’t accessible is just not that enjoyable to anybody. The PIAAC surveys, while imperfect, indirectly address what percentage of adults can read and appreciate "literary fiction." The first part of the definition of level 3: >Adults at Level 3 are able to construct meaning across larger chunks of text or perform multi-step operations in order to identify and formulate responses. They can identify, interpret or evaluate one or more pieces of information, often employing varying levels of inferencing. The first part for Level 4: >At level 4, adults can read long and dense texts presented on multiple pages in order to complete tasks that involve access, understanding, evaluation and reflection about the text(s) contents and sources across multiple processing cycles. Adults at this level can infer what the task is asking based on complex or implicit statements. Successful task completion often requires the production of knowledge-based inferences. The full definitions can be found here: https://nces.ed.gov/surveys/piaac/measure.asp https://nces.ed.gov/surveys/piaac/measure.asp Based on the full definitions, understanding the use of metaphor in a longer text probably sits in Level 4. A simple metaphor might sit in Level 3. Based on the recent survey results, only half of US adults read at Level 3 or above. Around 15% read at Level 4 or above. I invite you to look at this PowerPoint of sample questions for each level: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwjJlpLS2YWOAxUmFFkFHWMqAU8QFnoECBsQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fpiaac.squarespace.com%2Fs%2F7-Sample-Tasks113014AIRlogofinal12814.pptx&usg=AOvVaw3lah7y6G1lQ8P3jLKxa3vg&opi=89978449 https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwjJ... Based on that, what level of literacy do you think indicates someone capable of reading and enjoying literary fiction? I think the hypothetical cutoff is somewhere between Level 3 and 4. Based on all of this, let's use Sally Rooney's book "Normal People" as an example. If we're being super charitable, at most 50% of people would be able to read and comprehend that book. If we're being less charitable with our definition of "comprehension," I think we're probably looking at closer to 30% of people really understanding it.