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> Again, I’d encourage you to stop thinking you’re dealing with people fundamentally different than you, and start considering why they’re acting the way they’r

> Again, I’d encourage you to stop thinking you’re dealing with people fundamentally different than you, and start considering why they’re acting the way they’re acting. So you're saying that there are motivations that would make you perform suicide bombings? There are incentives by which you would sacrifice your children? The vast majority of Iranians and Palestinians are good people. Same as everyone. The leadership and nutcases are vastly different than normal people. I have friends in Gaza and the west bank. They are victims of these nutcases, this sort of mentality is tolerance of intolerance. They are victims of Hamas as the Iranian people are victims of their leadership. > but to consistently act surprised when people act “irrationally” is to suggest either your definition of rational is wrong or your understanding of the circumstances are wrong It isn't that they're irrational. Their decisions don't match western rationality which is based on different standards. If you think that the death of your child will send him on a fast track to heaven that can seriously impact the rational choices you make down the line. It doesn't mean you can't speak calmly or even pretend to have a different set of objectives. Their definition of reality leads them to a very different set of incentives and decisions. I understand exactly why the leadership wants nuclear weapons. They're paranoid and they aren't wrong in their paranoia, but that goes both ways. If Israel had listened to voices like this in the past then Saddam Husein and Assad would have had nuclear weapons. Luckily they don't and now we don't have to know what the Iranian leadership would have done. That's a good thing for everyone, especially for the Iranian people in the long term. Assuming you're from the states, imagine the Mexican president calling death to America constantly, claiming it's their religious prerogative to destroy America and launch multiple terrorist cells against America... Then imagine them developing nuclear weapons... The USA would be justifiably paranoid.

teleforce 1y ago
Not sure why are you very adamant in defending Israel's govt inhuman actions in all your postings? How do you sleep at night? Not condoning suicide attack but early zionists in Israel are all the same attacking civilians by the same actions, and after more than hundreds years the autrocities still continue until today albeit in different inhuman forms [1]. Worst now they're using indiscriminate military bombings against Palestinian people mostly women and children that has no proper protection from state military [2]. From your logic and claims, zionist and Israel military don't match your so called western rationality and seems to be based on different standards. Perhaps all these inhuman actions based on the fact that they wrongly believe that they're God's chosen people destined for the Heavens and will not be touched by the Hell fire for whatever autrocities they've committed? [3]. [1] The Hundred Years' War on Palestine: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hundred_Years%27_War_on_Palestine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hundred_Years%27_War_on_Pa... [2] Zionist political violence [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionist_political_violence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionist_political_violence [3] Chosen people: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chosen_people https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chosen_people
- invalidname 1y ago
  > Not sure why are you very adamant in defending Israel's govt inhuman actions in all your postings? How do you sleep at night? I don't sleep great with all the constant rocket alarms because we're under fire and I have to take my kids to the safe room. I'm not defending the Israeli government and very much didn't vote for them. I do explain specific policies that do make sense and the logic behind them. > Not condoning suicide attack but early zionists in Israel are all the same attacking civilians by the same actions, Nope. First off the use of the word "zionist" as a derogatory term is problematic. It just means "patriot" or the desire to live in Israel. There were early attacks before the formation of Israel that can be broadly described as terrorist attacks. The difference in the severity and violence is staggering. E.g. the worst example is the hotel bombing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_bombing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_bombing But here are some huge differences: * They called in advance to warn about the bomb - this was ignored due to human error * They were hunted down by moderate Israelis > and after more than hundreds years the autrocities still continue until today albeit in different inhuman forms Here's a different take. Palestinians spent the past 120 years constantly fighting the Jews. Losing and making things worse for themselves. Had they accepted the Jews right to exist by their side we could have all prospered. Israel gave them multiple chances to end this. It offered them a state twice. It even left Gaza and cleared the settlements. Instead the people voted in Hamas and proceeded to take the billions given to them in order to build rockets and a war machine against Israel. I'm not saying that Israel is innocent here. But as a country Israel did pretty much anything one could expect under such a situation. > Worst now they're using indiscriminate military bombings against Palestinian people mostly women and children Again. Not true and relies on false numbers/narratives. Bombing is very discriminate and it's based on intelligence. It's coordinated with legal oversight. There are failures for sure, but Israel is doing more to avoid civilian deaths than any country in history. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/04/05/far-past-time-to-stop-paying-attention-to-hamas-lies/ https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/04/05/far-past-time-to... https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2025/04/01/hamas-drops-thousands-of-deaths-from-casualty-figurures/ https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2025/04/01/hamas-drop... https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2025/03/palestine-israel-pragmatism/682027/ https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2025/03/pa... Hell, the IDF even calls people on the phone to make sure they evacuate: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67327079 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67327079 > From your logic and claims, zionist and Israel military don't match your so called western rationality and seems to be based on different standards. Nope. It's the fact that you believe a false narrative propagated by Hamas that is the problem. That gives them an incentive to keep sacrificing Palestinian civilians to erode support for Israel under the false hope that it will cause trigger the countries demise. > Perhaps all these inhuman actions based on the fact that they wrongly believe that they're God's chosen people destined for the Heavens and will not be touched by the Hell fire for whatever autrocities they've committed?. I suggest looking at the demographics of Israel. Israel has one of the highest ratios of secular/atheists. It is a deeply liberal state. Tel Aviv is more gay than San Francisco. My kids go to school with Muslim kids who are also Israeli citizens and 20% of the population. Hell, if I watched the nonsense John Oliver says I'd probably also hate Israel. The fact is, it's a very different country from the narrative some people are driving. The supposed facts you chose are deeply cherry picked. But the people you're supposedly defending would stone a gay person or a woman for the crime of being raped. Have been behind multiple terrorist attacks against civilians in busses, malls, coffee shops and embassies. Have killed Americans and held them hostage. These are bad people. Worse, their goal isn't independence. Their goal is to kill 10M Israelis. From the river to the sea means kill all Israelis.
roughly 1y ago
So, first, noting from your other comments here that you're not getting to armchair this from the safety of abroad like the rest of us - I sincerely hope you and your family stay safe and can know peace. I'm putting a lot of words into what may seem like a defense of either Iran or its proxies - believe me when I say I'm aiming to explain, not justify. I'm a pacifist and a humanist, and my genuine hope is that people everywhere can live in peace and safety. I'll also say that if I say things like "Israel does X" or something, I'm not ascribing the actions or morals of the state to you personally - I live in America, I know the difference between the actions of a government and the opinions of its people (unless you've got Bibi's private number, in which case - get dialing, damn). > So you're saying that there are motivations that would make you perform suicide bombings? There are incentives by which you would sacrifice your children? <...> If you think that the death of your child will send him on a fast track to heaven that can seriously impact the rational choices you make down the line. If your people were under threat, would you sacrifice yourself to save them? If your children died fighting to protect your country (genuinely protect, not in the "US invades Iraq to protect our god-given right to drive giant trucks" sense), would you be proud of them? Do you think they'd go to heaven? This is why I keep pressing on this: under what circumstances would you do the same things that they're doing? Start from the premise that you did, and work backwards - what would it take? Why would you do that? If you continue to act like these people are weird alterna-humans, you're going to keep getting surprised by their actions. Start from the premise that they're like you or broadly like the people you know, work your way back to why the hell they're doing the things that keep surprising you, and then figure out what's going to make them stop. (As a separate note, the concept of martyrdom doesn't start in Islam - there's a rich history of it across all the Abrahamic religions, and all of them presume the martyr's getting the fast track to paradise.) I'd say one other thing, which is that Hamas is a militant group which considers themselves under existential siege and behaves accordingly - Iran is a different entity under different constraints whose people (and leaders) make different choices. Words are words - I'd suspect we've both heard plenty of revolting things from our countrymen that we brush off as idle talk that the other side would take as a dire threat. And, for what it's worth, I understand the paranoia. I don't think it's unjustified. I get why Israel does not want Iran to get a nuclear bomb. But I don't think the actions of Israel or the US here are making that outcome less likely, and I think they're taking those actions due to the kind of misreading of Iran that we're discussing here. To flip this on its head: if you were Iran, what on earth would convince you not to build a bomb now?

teleforce 1y ago

Not sure why are you very adamant in defending Israel's govt inhuman actions in all your postings? How do you sleep at night? Not condoning suicide attack but early zionists in Israel are all the same attacking civilians by the same actions, and after more than hundreds years the autrocities still continue until today albeit in different inhuman forms [1]. Worst now they're using indiscriminate military bombings against Palestinian people mostly women and children that has no proper protection from state military [2]. From your logic and claims, zionist and Israel military don't match your so called western rationality and seems to be based on different standards. Perhaps all these inhuman actions based on the fact that they wrongly believe that they're God's chosen people destined for the Heavens and will not be touched by the Hell fire for whatever autrocities they've committed? [3]. [1] The Hundred Years' War on Palestine: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hundred_Years%27_War_on_Palestine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hundred_Years%27_War_on_Pa... [2] Zionist political violence [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionist_political_violence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionist_political_violence [3] Chosen people: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chosen_people https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chosen_people

invalidname 1y ago
> Not sure why are you very adamant in defending Israel's govt inhuman actions in all your postings? How do you sleep at night? I don't sleep great with all the constant rocket alarms because we're under fire and I have to take my kids to the safe room. I'm not defending the Israeli government and very much didn't vote for them. I do explain specific policies that do make sense and the logic behind them. > Not condoning suicide attack but early zionists in Israel are all the same attacking civilians by the same actions, Nope. First off the use of the word "zionist" as a derogatory term is problematic. It just means "patriot" or the desire to live in Israel. There were early attacks before the formation of Israel that can be broadly described as terrorist attacks. The difference in the severity and violence is staggering. E.g. the worst example is the hotel bombing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_bombing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_bombing But here are some huge differences: * They called in advance to warn about the bomb - this was ignored due to human error * They were hunted down by moderate Israelis > and after more than hundreds years the autrocities still continue until today albeit in different inhuman forms Here's a different take. Palestinians spent the past 120 years constantly fighting the Jews. Losing and making things worse for themselves. Had they accepted the Jews right to exist by their side we could have all prospered. Israel gave them multiple chances to end this. It offered them a state twice. It even left Gaza and cleared the settlements. Instead the people voted in Hamas and proceeded to take the billions given to them in order to build rockets and a war machine against Israel. I'm not saying that Israel is innocent here. But as a country Israel did pretty much anything one could expect under such a situation. > Worst now they're using indiscriminate military bombings against Palestinian people mostly women and children Again. Not true and relies on false numbers/narratives. Bombing is very discriminate and it's based on intelligence. It's coordinated with legal oversight. There are failures for sure, but Israel is doing more to avoid civilian deaths than any country in history. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/04/05/far-past-time-to-stop-paying-attention-to-hamas-lies/ https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/04/05/far-past-time-to... https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2025/04/01/hamas-drops-thousands-of-deaths-from-casualty-figurures/ https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2025/04/01/hamas-drop... https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2025/03/palestine-israel-pragmatism/682027/ https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2025/03/pa... Hell, the IDF even calls people on the phone to make sure they evacuate: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67327079 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67327079 > From your logic and claims, zionist and Israel military don't match your so called western rationality and seems to be based on different standards. Nope. It's the fact that you believe a false narrative propagated by Hamas that is the problem. That gives them an incentive to keep sacrificing Palestinian civilians to erode support for Israel under the false hope that it will cause trigger the countries demise. > Perhaps all these inhuman actions based on the fact that they wrongly believe that they're God's chosen people destined for the Heavens and will not be touched by the Hell fire for whatever autrocities they've committed?. I suggest looking at the demographics of Israel. Israel has one of the highest ratios of secular/atheists. It is a deeply liberal state. Tel Aviv is more gay than San Francisco. My kids go to school with Muslim kids who are also Israeli citizens and 20% of the population. Hell, if I watched the nonsense John Oliver says I'd probably also hate Israel. The fact is, it's a very different country from the narrative some people are driving. The supposed facts you chose are deeply cherry picked. But the people you're supposedly defending would stone a gay person or a woman for the crime of being raped. Have been behind multiple terrorist attacks against civilians in busses, malls, coffee shops and embassies. Have killed Americans and held them hostage. These are bad people. Worse, their goal isn't independence. Their goal is to kill 10M Israelis. From the river to the sea means kill all Israelis.

roughly 1y ago

So, first, noting from your other comments here that you're not getting to armchair this from the safety of abroad like the rest of us - I sincerely hope you and your family stay safe and can know peace. I'm putting a lot of words into what may seem like a defense of either Iran or its proxies - believe me when I say I'm aiming to explain, not justify. I'm a pacifist and a humanist, and my genuine hope is that people everywhere can live in peace and safety. I'll also say that if I say things like "Israel does X" or something, I'm not ascribing the actions or morals of the state to you personally - I live in America, I know the difference between the actions of a government and the opinions of its people (unless you've got Bibi's private number, in which case - get dialing, damn). > So you're saying that there are motivations that would make you perform suicide bombings? There are incentives by which you would sacrifice your children? <...> If you think that the death of your child will send him on a fast track to heaven that can seriously impact the rational choices you make down the line. If your people were under threat, would you sacrifice yourself to save them? If your children died fighting to protect your country (genuinely protect, not in the "US invades Iraq to protect our god-given right to drive giant trucks" sense), would you be proud of them? Do you think they'd go to heaven? This is why I keep pressing on this: under what circumstances would you do the same things that they're doing? Start from the premise that you did, and work backwards - what would it take? Why would you do that? If you continue to act like these people are weird alterna-humans, you're going to keep getting surprised by their actions. Start from the premise that they're like you or broadly like the people you know, work your way back to why the hell they're doing the things that keep surprising you, and then figure out what's going to make them stop. (As a separate note, the concept of martyrdom doesn't start in Islam - there's a rich history of it across all the Abrahamic religions, and all of them presume the martyr's getting the fast track to paradise.) I'd say one other thing, which is that Hamas is a militant group which considers themselves under existential siege and behaves accordingly - Iran is a different entity under different constraints whose people (and leaders) make different choices. Words are words - I'd suspect we've both heard plenty of revolting things from our countrymen that we brush off as idle talk that the other side would take as a dire threat. And, for what it's worth, I understand the paranoia. I don't think it's unjustified. I get why Israel does not want Iran to get a nuclear bomb. But I don't think the actions of Israel or the US here are making that outcome less likely, and I think they're taking those actions due to the kind of misreading of Iran that we're discussing here. To flip this on its head: if you were Iran, what on earth would convince you not to build a bomb now?