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And all your arguments don't matter. He was a legally elected President - whose election was even EU Vetted by many, many observers and found to be completely v

And all your arguments don't matter. He was a legally elected President - whose election was even EU Vetted by many, many observers and found to be completely valid. He could have been overthrown in the next elections and if that had happened, the Russian ethnic regions wouldn't have rebelled. You would have yet another corrupt Ukrainian President and no-one would have batted an eye. Life would have just continued as usual. But the US was far too eager to carry out regime change and so we have the dreadful situation today.

9dev 1y ago
That is an awful retelling of history. There was no revolution in Ukraine, but protests and demonstrations that were brutally crushed by government forces. The people persevered though and the president fled the country, leading to a formal and correct process of electing a new government after. The US didn’t have anything more to do with this.
- lenkite 1y ago
  > The US didn’t have anything more to do with this. Only if one is utterly blind and put fingers in their ears, can one truly believe that. Nuland's call was leaked where she was proudly deciding who would form the next government in Ukraine and who should be kept on the outside. And her personal choice of puppet: "Yats" did in-fact become the prime minister. Nuland was even handing out cookies to anti-Yanukovych protests for Christ's sake. Mc Cain actually flew in and congratulated the protesters. Imagine if that was happening in the US against a US President - members of foreign nation's government cheering on a coup and deciding who would be the next President. There would be Absolute War.
  - 9dev 1y ago
    For those reading this and doubting: Read the call transcript for yourself, annotated by Jonathan Marcus of the BBC: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957 Yes, the USA is attempting to facilitate talks here. No, that does not mean they have "decided" who is going to form the next government. That claim is just Russian propaganda.
    - lenkite 1y ago
      I also fully support not just reading the call transcript, but also listening to the leaked call so you get Nuland's firm tone. I would reserve very skeptical judgement on the "annotations". Those weren't part of the call. Listen to: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUCCR4jAS3Y https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUCCR4jAS3Y > No, that does not mean they have "decided" who is going to form the next government. That claim is just Russian propaganda Anyone with a rational brain who separates themselves from biases and emotions and carefully listens to the call would realize there is no propaganda involved here. Also, for better clarity of judgement, please perform a thought exercise and consider what would happen if a foreign government's members were discussing the personal choices , makeup and "talks" for members of the next American government.
      - mopsi 1y ago
        > please perform a thought exercise and consider what would happen if a foreign government's members were discussing the personal choices , makeup and "talks" for members of the next American government. We can discuss potential successors to Xi right here on HN, and an outsider might say that "a forum frequented by Silicon Valley billionaires is picking the next leader of China". But that would be a huge misrepresentation of us and our influence. The fixation of Russian trolls on that single phone call reeks of desperation. During election season, I'd expect hundreds of such calls to be happening at any given moment between various officials, strategists, financiers, candidates, analysts, and many other people.
stavros 1y ago
But the GP is not saying the election wasn't valid, they're saying the guy was misrepresenting himself. I hate the US meddling as much as the next guy, but why is the solution to that problem "just endure four years of destruction until he leaves"?
- lenkite 1y ago
  All politicians "mispresent themselves". Kicking them out during elections is the way they are thrown out in a functioning democracy. Or do you believe Americans should storm the White House and beat up the President anytime a campaign promise is broken ? And one that is magnified by the funding and urging of a foreign government ? Such actions - which break the "deal of democracy" naturally lead to civil war - which is exactly what happened in Ukraine.
  - stavros 1y ago
    I don't care what Americans do, but I'd quite like to storm our parliament and kick out the current government.
  - motorest 1y ago
    > All politicians "mispresent themselves". No. The ones that try to push agendas that go against their programme and are deeply unpopular will often see public protests and even general strikes demanding policy reversals or governments stepping down. Do you call those regime changes as well?
  - tguvot 1y ago
    you neglect to mention that those were peaceful protests till protestors (mostly students) got brutal beat down by police (on advise of russian advisors). after this protests "for eu integration" moved to protests against brutality and when police escalate more it became "ant-regime" protest
    - lenkite 1y ago
      Sorry, I just had to respond to this ridiculous assertion..your "peaceful protestors" were building and firing slingshots, molotov cocktails and even DIY rocket launchers - they were even fawned upon and idolized by the Western press for this. You do that in any nation and you will get a beating from the police. You do that in the US and you will be rapidly sent to the after-life. Hell, several people even made a giant catapult on-site (props given for engineering knowledge though). What surprised me at that time watching is that the Ukrainian police were so tolerant of rocks falling on them. American police would have immediately opened fire. Of-course, that tolerance didn't last long once policemen started taking casualties.
Narretz 1y ago
There's no way of knowing that Russia wouldn't have incited the "rebellions" anyway. Once the writing was on the wall that the majority of Ukrainians didn't want to be Russia's puppets, Putin would likely have acted one way or the other. Why take chances?
inglor_cz 1y ago
"He could have been overthrown in the next elections" Let me see if Erdogan can be overthrown in the next elections in Turkey. No US involvement either. If you live in a stable Western country, your trust in the next elections being fair and free is understandable, but in that case, refrain from any authoritative talk ("your arguments don't matter") about other places. In recent democracies that transitioned from totalitarian rule just a decade or two ago, elections are far easier to hijack than in the UK or Denmark. "no-one would have batted an eye" You cannot really make such a strong prediction about places like Ukraine, the Balkans, the Middle East etc. These are places where empires collide, and several crises in a century are almost a given. Anyway I am fairly glad that Ukraine didn't end up like Belarus did, a satellite state of Moscow. Anything is better than becoming a satellite state of Moscow. Most of us from behind the Iron Curtain would rather fight a war than submit to Moscow again. Interestingly, the Western leftists, who otherwise preach anti-colonialism from breakfast to sunset and then some, don't understand the same dynamic among white-majority nations. But it is still there.
- lenkite 1y ago
  Did you somehow magically miss the part where Yanukovych's election was extensively observed and vetted by the EU and several other international bodies ? The EU’s own delegation — alongside the OSCE and other bodies — stated that the election was "free, fair, and transparent". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Ukrainian_presidential_election#International_observers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Ukrainian_presidential_el... "Over 700 observers from EU member states participated, in addition to OSCE/ODIHR, the EU Parliament, PACE, and other international delegations" The Guardian reported EU-led observers praised the vote as "fair and truly competitive" noting only "minor irregularities” that did not affect overall results". "After the second round of the election international observers and the OSCE called the election transparent and honest." https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/feb/08/viktor-yanukovych-ukraine-president-election https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/feb/08/viktor-yanukov...
  - inglor_cz 1y ago
    "Did you somehow magically miss the part" Could you tone down your arrogance, please? I was talking about the next election. You expressed your conviction that Yanukovich could be removed in the next election, remember? I expressed my doubt about iron-cladness of such future election. Strongmen-like leaders in fresh democracies have a lot of methods how to win next elections without actually winning them.
motorest 1y ago
> And all your arguments don't matter. He was a legally elected President - whose election was even EU Vetted by many, many observers and found to be completely valid. Yes, he was. What you are leaving out is the fact that in spite of being elected based on an enthusiastically pro-EU platform, it turned out he was a Russian agent and betrayed his mandate to enforce Kremlin's anti-west agenda and force himself upon Ukraine as another kremlin-controlled dictatorship. Except the people of Ukraine wanted none of that and protested against this betrayal, which culminated in the wannabe dictator seeking exile in Russia. Somehow you leave this out when you talk about basic democratic principles. Why is that? Is it out of sheer ignorance? What's also very odd is the way that you somehow try to portray anti-government protests as revolutions and regime changes, when this is a Hallmark of any democratic system: when a government doesn't follow through with their compromise and go directly against their mandate and people's will, they express their discontent and demand elections. How odd that when democracies reject Russia's interference, this is deemed as an anti-democratic coup.

9dev 1y ago

That is an awful retelling of history. There was no revolution in Ukraine, but protests and demonstrations that were brutally crushed by government forces. The people persevered though and the president fled the country, leading to a formal and correct process of electing a new government after. The US didn’t have anything more to do with this.

lenkite 1y ago
> The US didn’t have anything more to do with this. Only if one is utterly blind and put fingers in their ears, can one truly believe that. Nuland's call was leaked where she was proudly deciding who would form the next government in Ukraine and who should be kept on the outside. And her personal choice of puppet: "Yats" did in-fact become the prime minister. Nuland was even handing out cookies to anti-Yanukovych protests for Christ's sake. Mc Cain actually flew in and congratulated the protesters. Imagine if that was happening in the US against a US President - members of foreign nation's government cheering on a coup and deciding who would be the next President. There would be Absolute War.
- 9dev 1y ago
  For those reading this and doubting: Read the call transcript for yourself, annotated by Jonathan Marcus of the BBC: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957 Yes, the USA is attempting to facilitate talks here. No, that does not mean they have "decided" who is going to form the next government. That claim is just Russian propaganda.
  - lenkite 1y ago
    I also fully support not just reading the call transcript, but also listening to the leaked call so you get Nuland's firm tone. I would reserve very skeptical judgement on the "annotations". Those weren't part of the call. Listen to: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUCCR4jAS3Y https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUCCR4jAS3Y > No, that does not mean they have "decided" who is going to form the next government. That claim is just Russian propaganda Anyone with a rational brain who separates themselves from biases and emotions and carefully listens to the call would realize there is no propaganda involved here. Also, for better clarity of judgement, please perform a thought exercise and consider what would happen if a foreign government's members were discussing the personal choices , makeup and "talks" for members of the next American government.
    - mopsi 1y ago
      > please perform a thought exercise and consider what would happen if a foreign government's members were discussing the personal choices , makeup and "talks" for members of the next American government. We can discuss potential successors to Xi right here on HN, and an outsider might say that "a forum frequented by Silicon Valley billionaires is picking the next leader of China". But that would be a huge misrepresentation of us and our influence. The fixation of Russian trolls on that single phone call reeks of desperation. During election season, I'd expect hundreds of such calls to be happening at any given moment between various officials, strategists, financiers, candidates, analysts, and many other people.

stavros 1y ago

But the GP is not saying the election wasn't valid, they're saying the guy was misrepresenting himself. I hate the US meddling as much as the next guy, but why is the solution to that problem "just endure four years of destruction until he leaves"?

lenkite 1y ago
All politicians "mispresent themselves". Kicking them out during elections is the way they are thrown out in a functioning democracy. Or do you believe Americans should storm the White House and beat up the President anytime a campaign promise is broken ? And one that is magnified by the funding and urging of a foreign government ? Such actions - which break the "deal of democracy" naturally lead to civil war - which is exactly what happened in Ukraine.
- stavros 1y ago
  I don't care what Americans do, but I'd quite like to storm our parliament and kick out the current government.
- motorest 1y ago
  > All politicians "mispresent themselves". No. The ones that try to push agendas that go against their programme and are deeply unpopular will often see public protests and even general strikes demanding policy reversals or governments stepping down. Do you call those regime changes as well?
- tguvot 1y ago
  you neglect to mention that those were peaceful protests till protestors (mostly students) got brutal beat down by police (on advise of russian advisors). after this protests "for eu integration" moved to protests against brutality and when police escalate more it became "ant-regime" protest
  - lenkite 1y ago
    Sorry, I just had to respond to this ridiculous assertion..your "peaceful protestors" were building and firing slingshots, molotov cocktails and even DIY rocket launchers - they were even fawned upon and idolized by the Western press for this. You do that in any nation and you will get a beating from the police. You do that in the US and you will be rapidly sent to the after-life. Hell, several people even made a giant catapult on-site (props given for engineering knowledge though). What surprised me at that time watching is that the Ukrainian police were so tolerant of rocks falling on them. American police would have immediately opened fire. Of-course, that tolerance didn't last long once policemen started taking casualties.

Narretz 1y ago

There's no way of knowing that Russia wouldn't have incited the "rebellions" anyway. Once the writing was on the wall that the majority of Ukrainians didn't want to be Russia's puppets, Putin would likely have acted one way or the other. Why take chances?

inglor_cz 1y ago

"He could have been overthrown in the next elections" Let me see if Erdogan can be overthrown in the next elections in Turkey. No US involvement either. If you live in a stable Western country, your trust in the next elections being fair and free is understandable, but in that case, refrain from any authoritative talk ("your arguments don't matter") about other places. In recent democracies that transitioned from totalitarian rule just a decade or two ago, elections are far easier to hijack than in the UK or Denmark. "no-one would have batted an eye" You cannot really make such a strong prediction about places like Ukraine, the Balkans, the Middle East etc. These are places where empires collide, and several crises in a century are almost a given. Anyway I am fairly glad that Ukraine didn't end up like Belarus did, a satellite state of Moscow. Anything is better than becoming a satellite state of Moscow. Most of us from behind the Iron Curtain would rather fight a war than submit to Moscow again. Interestingly, the Western leftists, who otherwise preach anti-colonialism from breakfast to sunset and then some, don't understand the same dynamic among white-majority nations. But it is still there.

lenkite 1y ago
Did you somehow magically miss the part where Yanukovych's election was extensively observed and vetted by the EU and several other international bodies ? The EU’s own delegation — alongside the OSCE and other bodies — stated that the election was "free, fair, and transparent". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Ukrainian_presidential_election#International_observers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Ukrainian_presidential_el... "Over 700 observers from EU member states participated, in addition to OSCE/ODIHR, the EU Parliament, PACE, and other international delegations" The Guardian reported EU-led observers praised the vote as "fair and truly competitive" noting only "minor irregularities” that did not affect overall results". "After the second round of the election international observers and the OSCE called the election transparent and honest." https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/feb/08/viktor-yanukovych-ukraine-president-election https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/feb/08/viktor-yanukov...
- inglor_cz 1y ago
  "Did you somehow magically miss the part" Could you tone down your arrogance, please? I was talking about the next election. You expressed your conviction that Yanukovich could be removed in the next election, remember? I expressed my doubt about iron-cladness of such future election. Strongmen-like leaders in fresh democracies have a lot of methods how to win next elections without actually winning them.

motorest 1y ago

> And all your arguments don't matter. He was a legally elected President - whose election was even EU Vetted by many, many observers and found to be completely valid. Yes, he was. What you are leaving out is the fact that in spite of being elected based on an enthusiastically pro-EU platform, it turned out he was a Russian agent and betrayed his mandate to enforce Kremlin's anti-west agenda and force himself upon Ukraine as another kremlin-controlled dictatorship. Except the people of Ukraine wanted none of that and protested against this betrayal, which culminated in the wannabe dictator seeking exile in Russia. Somehow you leave this out when you talk about basic democratic principles. Why is that? Is it out of sheer ignorance? What's also very odd is the way that you somehow try to portray anti-government protests as revolutions and regime changes, when this is a Hallmark of any democratic system: when a government doesn't follow through with their compromise and go directly against their mandate and people's will, they express their discontent and demand elections. How odd that when democracies reject Russia's interference, this is deemed as an anti-democratic coup.