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Iran was one of the first countries in the Middle East to recognize Israel. But it all changed since Islamic Revolution. Their official position since than have

Iran was one of the first countries in the Middle East to recognize Israel. But it all changed since Islamic Revolution. Their official position since than have been that Israel cannot exist. They don't even refer to it as Israel but as "Zionist Regime". It's their official public position and what they say on their (government controlled) TV. They've been fighting proxy war with Israel since 80s. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destruction_of_Israel_in_Iranian_policy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destruction_of_Israel_in_Irani...

AlecSchueler 1y ago
I'm not sure that answers my question. They could have a political belief that Israel must fall but you haven't shown a reason to believe it's based on their religious beliefs. Obviously the two things are tied up together but I don't believe that if a Jewish homeland state had been created in Western Europe or in Antarctica that Iran would have an issue with it. Their problem is surely that Israel represents an historical and continuing power play by Western forces, a springboard from which the US and it's allies can encourage coups, wage wars and dominate the trade of the natural resources in the region. It seems like a very practical concern more than a religious one.
- loandbehold 1y ago
  It doesn't matter for Israel weather it's based on religious belief or not. But Iran does frame their opposition in Islamic context in its communication to Iranian people. E.g. Khamenei says things like "fighting Israel to liberate Palestine is an obligation and an Islamic jihad." https://www.rferl.org/a/iran-supreme-leader-israel-cancerous-tumor-khamenei/30628754.html https://www.rferl.org/a/iran-supreme-leader-israel-cancerous...
  - AlecSchueler 1y ago
    It might not matter for Israel but it matters for me as an Irishman watching the rest of the world getting sucked into a conflict. Framing it as a religious opposition paints Iran as an irrational actor which can't be reasoned with, when it appears to me that it's behaving the way it's been pushed to behave by encroaching colonial forces. I don't believe in Islam or in Judaism but I do believe in radical discourse and trying to understand the position of the other. Saying "it's their religion to be bloody violent and destructive, what can we do?" throws any space for understanding out of the window.
- Ray20 1y ago
  >but you haven't shown a reason to believe it's based on their religious beliefs. Their religious leaders like literally come out and say, "This is based on our religious beliefs."
  - AlecSchueler 1y ago
    Does every Shi'ite hold these same beliefs then? What is the religious basis for the belief? Henry VIII used religious justification for breaking off from the pope as well but surely we're grown up enough to recognise those movements came about from a desire for political autonomy more than disagreements over bible interpretations?
    - simonh 1y ago
      You're looking for this. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destruction_of_Israel_in_Iranian_policy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destruction_of_Israel_in_Irani... >In 2024, Ali Khamenei told Hamas leader Ismail Haniyeh: "The divine promise to eliminate the Zionist entity will be fulfilled and we will see the day when Palestine will rise from the river to the sea." In particular check out the "clerics" section of that article for the statements of multiple leading religious authorities in the regime on the religious justifications.
      - AlecSchueler 1y ago
        Well, to start off I want to reiterate what I said about the reformation era political upheavals in Europe and religion being used as a justification and easy explanation for very real geopolitical concerns. But just for argument's sake and to respect your position I always want to point out that your quote subtly talks about "the Zionist entity" and not about Israel or Jews. So I can assume that you're equating Israel with Zionism, which is arguably fair. Now the question I would have is do we recognise the inherent violence of Zionism and, if so, why do we decentre that in our conversation and instead focus on the reaction to it?
        simonh 1y ago
- nec4b 1y ago
  Are you proposing moving Israel to another location?
  - AlecSchueler 1y ago
    No.
const_cast 1y ago
To be fair, prior to the Islamic Revolution, Iran was controlled by a US-installed government. Obviously, they were going to be pro-Israel.

AlecSchueler 1y ago

I'm not sure that answers my question. They could have a political belief that Israel must fall but you haven't shown a reason to believe it's based on their religious beliefs. Obviously the two things are tied up together but I don't believe that if a Jewish homeland state had been created in Western Europe or in Antarctica that Iran would have an issue with it. Their problem is surely that Israel represents an historical and continuing power play by Western forces, a springboard from which the US and it's allies can encourage coups, wage wars and dominate the trade of the natural resources in the region. It seems like a very practical concern more than a religious one.

loandbehold 1y ago
It doesn't matter for Israel weather it's based on religious belief or not. But Iran does frame their opposition in Islamic context in its communication to Iranian people. E.g. Khamenei says things like "fighting Israel to liberate Palestine is an obligation and an Islamic jihad." https://www.rferl.org/a/iran-supreme-leader-israel-cancerous-tumor-khamenei/30628754.html https://www.rferl.org/a/iran-supreme-leader-israel-cancerous...
- AlecSchueler 1y ago
  It might not matter for Israel but it matters for me as an Irishman watching the rest of the world getting sucked into a conflict. Framing it as a religious opposition paints Iran as an irrational actor which can't be reasoned with, when it appears to me that it's behaving the way it's been pushed to behave by encroaching colonial forces. I don't believe in Islam or in Judaism but I do believe in radical discourse and trying to understand the position of the other. Saying "it's their religion to be bloody violent and destructive, what can we do?" throws any space for understanding out of the window.
Ray20 1y ago
>but you haven't shown a reason to believe it's based on their religious beliefs. Their religious leaders like literally come out and say, "This is based on our religious beliefs."
- AlecSchueler 1y ago
  Does every Shi'ite hold these same beliefs then? What is the religious basis for the belief? Henry VIII used religious justification for breaking off from the pope as well but surely we're grown up enough to recognise those movements came about from a desire for political autonomy more than disagreements over bible interpretations?
  - simonh 1y ago
    You're looking for this. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destruction_of_Israel_in_Iranian_policy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destruction_of_Israel_in_Irani... >In 2024, Ali Khamenei told Hamas leader Ismail Haniyeh: "The divine promise to eliminate the Zionist entity will be fulfilled and we will see the day when Palestine will rise from the river to the sea." In particular check out the "clerics" section of that article for the statements of multiple leading religious authorities in the regime on the religious justifications.
    - AlecSchueler 1y ago
      Well, to start off I want to reiterate what I said about the reformation era political upheavals in Europe and religion being used as a justification and easy explanation for very real geopolitical concerns. But just for argument's sake and to respect your position I always want to point out that your quote subtly talks about "the Zionist entity" and not about Israel or Jews. So I can assume that you're equating Israel with Zionism, which is arguably fair. Now the question I would have is do we recognise the inherent violence of Zionism and, if so, why do we decentre that in our conversation and instead focus on the reaction to it?
      - simonh 1y ago
nec4b 1y ago
Are you proposing moving Israel to another location?
- AlecSchueler 1y ago
  No.

const_cast 1y ago

To be fair, prior to the Islamic Revolution, Iran was controlled by a US-installed government. Obviously, they were going to be pro-Israel.