5 ms·

In the bigger picture of the species, death and birth are what prevents stagnation and enables the next generation tackle new challenges. We are imperfect copyi

by pacala 14y ago

In the bigger picture of the species, death and birth are what prevents stagnation and enables the next generation tackle new challenges. We are imperfect copying machines, both at biological and intelectual level. Stop the renewal cycle and not enough copy errors happen anymore, leading to the ultimate failure of the species in front of the fast pace of change in the surrounding environment.

JoshTriplett 14y ago
That sounds nice and tidy in the abstract. Make it more concrete: do you, personally, want to die to fulfill some perceived evolutionary imperative? If so, feel free. I don't, ever.
- pacala 14y ago
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_rider_problem http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_rider_problem
  - JoshTriplett 14y ago
    On the contrary, I can easily see a pile of fascinating societal consequences if everyone lives forever. Sounds like an awesome set of problems to have; bring them on.
- grannyg00se 14y ago
  Are you saying you don't ever want to die at all? That's interesting because there are some people who feel very strongly that they should die, and there are those who feel that they would never want to and should not need to. Some people faced with certain death will go to very extreme lengths to prolong their lives by the tiniest amount. Others will accept it. There's a sort of "natural way of things" mentality that is very pervasive. People believe that we are meant to die. I think this is another very difficult barrier that the SENS community faces.
  - actsasbuffoon 14y ago
    I don't want to achieve immortality through my work; I want to achieve immortality through not dying. I don't want to live on in the hearts of my countrymen; I want to live on in my apartment. - Woody Allen
  - JoshTriplett 14y ago
    > Are you saying you don't ever want to die at all? Emphatically yes. > That's interesting because there are some people who feel very strongly that they should die People often accept what they feel they can't change, more because they don't see any obvious way to change it rather than actually liking the situation they find themselves in. That can lead to rather impressive rationalizations of why we "need" to die, but that seems like sour grapes to me. I think a majority of that set of people would choose to live forever if they actually had the option. If the option actually existed in practice, rather than in philosophical conversations, intentionally choosing not to use it would amount to suicide. I'm not suicidal, so I want to live forever; I really don't see a middle ground there, other than indecision and procrastination. Frame the question inductively instead, to help people think about it less abstractly; I bet you'd get an almost universally positive response to "do you want to live at least one more day?". Or phrase it negatively and count the "no"s: I doubt you'll get many positive responses to "do you want to die tomorrow?", and the ones you do get probably indicate a need for immediate psychological help. > Some people faced with certain death will go to very extreme lengths to prolong their lives by the tiniest amount. Others will accept it. Depends on whether you think of "dead" as the absolute zero point on your value scale or not. If you don't, you can imagine scenarios in which you'd prefer death. Personally, I do see that as the zero point, so no scenario exists for which I'd consider death a preferable alternative. > There's a sort of "natural way of things" mentality that is very pervasive. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturalistic_fallacy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturalistic_fallacy Also called the "is-ought" fallacy, or biasing towards the current state as somehow more optimal than a different state. I think almost all instances of this argument would very quickly dissolve in the face of an actual option to live forever, leaving only a few random fanatics who really believe that they "should" die.
    - 14y ago
- batista 14y ago
  >I don't, ever. Will, give it time. It's not like we have a choice on the matter.

by pacala 14y ago

JoshTriplett 14y ago

That sounds nice and tidy in the abstract. Make it more concrete: do you, personally, want to die to fulfill some perceived evolutionary imperative? If so, feel free. I don't, ever.

pacala 14y ago
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_rider_problem http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_rider_problem
- JoshTriplett 14y ago
  On the contrary, I can easily see a pile of fascinating societal consequences if everyone lives forever. Sounds like an awesome set of problems to have; bring them on.
grannyg00se 14y ago
Are you saying you don't ever want to die at all? That's interesting because there are some people who feel very strongly that they should die, and there are those who feel that they would never want to and should not need to. Some people faced with certain death will go to very extreme lengths to prolong their lives by the tiniest amount. Others will accept it. There's a sort of "natural way of things" mentality that is very pervasive. People believe that we are meant to die. I think this is another very difficult barrier that the SENS community faces.
- actsasbuffoon 14y ago
  I don't want to achieve immortality through my work; I want to achieve immortality through not dying. I don't want to live on in the hearts of my countrymen; I want to live on in my apartment. - Woody Allen
- JoshTriplett 14y ago
  > Are you saying you don't ever want to die at all? Emphatically yes. > That's interesting because there are some people who feel very strongly that they should die People often accept what they feel they can't change, more because they don't see any obvious way to change it rather than actually liking the situation they find themselves in. That can lead to rather impressive rationalizations of why we "need" to die, but that seems like sour grapes to me. I think a majority of that set of people would choose to live forever if they actually had the option. If the option actually existed in practice, rather than in philosophical conversations, intentionally choosing not to use it would amount to suicide. I'm not suicidal, so I want to live forever; I really don't see a middle ground there, other than indecision and procrastination. Frame the question inductively instead, to help people think about it less abstractly; I bet you'd get an almost universally positive response to "do you want to live at least one more day?". Or phrase it negatively and count the "no"s: I doubt you'll get many positive responses to "do you want to die tomorrow?", and the ones you do get probably indicate a need for immediate psychological help. > Some people faced with certain death will go to very extreme lengths to prolong their lives by the tiniest amount. Others will accept it. Depends on whether you think of "dead" as the absolute zero point on your value scale or not. If you don't, you can imagine scenarios in which you'd prefer death. Personally, I do see that as the zero point, so no scenario exists for which I'd consider death a preferable alternative. > There's a sort of "natural way of things" mentality that is very pervasive. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturalistic_fallacy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturalistic_fallacy Also called the "is-ought" fallacy, or biasing towards the current state as somehow more optimal than a different state. I think almost all instances of this argument would very quickly dissolve in the face of an actual option to live forever, leaving only a few random fanatics who really believe that they "should" die.
  - 14y ago
batista 14y ago
>I don't, ever. Will, give it time. It's not like we have a choice on the matter.