39 ms·

> developers don't go out of their way more often to memorize the Ctrl+C, Ctrl+V I get freaked out enough seeing devs that can't touch type. Now you're telling

by kgwxd 1y ago

> developers don't go out of their way more often to memorize the Ctrl+C, Ctrl+V I get freaked out enough seeing devs that can't touch type. Now you're telling me there's a large number that also don't know the copy/paste shortcuts!?

petepete 1y ago
Also the number who click around to position the cursor when they could hold ctrl and skip there in a fraction of the time. Same goes for shift and highlighting.
- vintermann 1y ago
  There are old studies from the 70s showing that moving the cursor with mouse is faster than navigation keys. Tog famously claimed that Apple's internal studies consistently showed that mouse felt slower than it actually is, whereas keyboard navigation felt faster.
  - hbnjgf 1y ago
    I guess it depends on the distance. If you are currently typing and need to get to the beginning of the word, obviously it's way faster to navigate using the keyboard than the mouse. If instead you need to navigate somewhere you don't exactly know the location of, scanning and clicking is faster. Then again, if you happen to know the exact location, going there by command is much faster
    - fc417fc802 1y ago
      Selecting text is also a good example where the mouse is faster. One of the few for me. Having to switch modes, move to a line, then move to a character, then repeat that, is quite cumbersome in comparison. I'll take good keyboard controls for pretty much anything else though.
      - skydhash 1y ago
        With Vim and Emacs, you have nice commands for getting to an exact position. And if you're replacing, you don't need selections. Selection is mostly for copying, cutting, and applying commands.
    - skydhash 1y ago
      > If instead you need to navigate somewhere you don't exactly know the location of, scanning and clicking is faster. Search is better especially with code. I used emacs and vim more than other editors, so I got use to their navigation shortcut. And on macOS, the trackpad is nice and convenient. But I still prefer search and paging shortcuts when I need to scroll.
  - petepete 1y ago
    I'm not sure it'll hold up when you factor in moving your hand between the keyboard and mouse repeatedly. Skipping forward 3 words on the line, for example, could be ctrl+right ×3. I can do that faster than I can move my hand from the keyboard to the mouse, let alone drag it around.
FirmwareBurner 1y ago
>devs that can't touch type. Hey, that's me :) Out of curiosity, why is this a yardstick for SW developers? I assumed the more valuable skill of the profession would be critical thinking and problem solving skills, not finger dexterity on pressing buttons without looking. That's why I didn't become a secretary or court stenographer. I mean, a lot of doctors can't hand write for shit, but is that in anyway relevant to being a good doctor? What about SW devs with handicaps or mobility issues? Touch typing feels like a pretty niche hill to die on.
- EduardoBautista 1y ago
  It’s exactly because of having more valuable things to do that you should have typing just be a subconscious act instead of having to take your eyes off the monitor all the time.
  - moron4hire 1y ago
    Exactly. Because of this, I tend to think that there are no useless skills, or skills not worth refining as far as possible. Sure, there is contention for which skill you refine now, but asking yourself "should I get better at X?" in isolation should almost always get answered "yes". The more things you're really good at (typing, mental math, sharpening a knife, fixing your computer, navigating and merging git commits, cooking food, cleaning house, etc), the less time you'll spend on each thing, giving you more time to do other things. Plus, writing code is not the only kind of typing that I expect a developer to do. Even if I could accept that typing speed is not important for writing code, it's certainly important for writing documentation, good commit messages, communication with team mates and stakeholders, etc.
  - skydhash 1y ago
    Yes! It's quite nice not to have to think about typing. Just like you don't monitor the way you're handling a pen when you write. It's not related to being a good developer, but when you type as much as you do, having it done quickly and with the help of muscle memory helps with cognitive load. In other words, the only thing I think about is what to write, not how I do it.
Quarrel 1y ago
I'm more worried that there might be lots of devs that can't send a sigint!
lupusreal 1y ago
I know them but I virtually never use them. I've used X for more than 20 years and almost exclusively use the highlight and middle click method (outside of emacs, in which case I use evil bindings)
stronglikedan 1y ago
One of my juniors could not only not touch type, but would hit caps lock, type a letter, and hit caps lock again - every time they wanted to capitalize a word. They just happened to go on to become the most successful dev I've ever mentored and have now forgotten about us little guys, but I always wondered if they still did that.
- floam 1y ago
  I knew someone smart who did that and it ended up being related to them having shift bound since they were a child to something they used differently than me, to change their inputs to Chinese pinyin.
  - thaumasiotes 1y ago
    In Microsoft's input method, shift will toggle you between ascii input and pinyin input while not switching you out of the pinyin input method environment. I tend to use win+space, which instead toggles the input method you're using, as opposed to toggling how the pinyin input method interprets your input. But I had to learn about this secret special functionality of shift, because (some time ago; I don't know if it's still true) after switching your input method with world of warcraft running, the chat UI in the game would become nonresponsive. After all, who ever heard of wanting to switch between different languages while using a chat interface?
    - floam 1y ago
      Interesting, that’s perhaps where the idea came from then. What I witnessed was actually on a MacBook Air running macOS maybe 10-12 years ago, probably a version of macOS before they really improved the native pinyin input. The person had installed a third party input method (icon was an S is all I recall) / manager which changed by default how the shift key worked as you describe, it’d keep using that input method but it’d be in English mode. I recall thinking shift was an insane default but it did explain why she used CAPS LOCK to capitalize single characters.
      - 1y ago
teo_zero 1y ago
> I get freaked out enough seeing devs that can't touch type. Do you get freaked out the same way seeing professional drivers that don't race? I've never related the speed of typing to the quality of coding (maybe to the quantity, but not a reason for being freaked out).
- appreciatorBus 1y ago
  I don’t think the concern is that they cannot type really really fast as in your comparison of professional drivers who don’t race. In any domain where typing is the dominant activity, it would make sense to invest the small effort it takes to learn to touch type, and to learn basic keyboard shortcuts. You don’t have to reach 120 words per minute for the investment to pay off. I used to be a one or two finger typist. Eventually, I took a touch typing class. For a long while it seemed like a waste of time. I could already type with one or two fingers at 40 words per minute. However, as I became proficient with touch typing, and as my touch typing speed approached my hunt and peck speed I started to realize what a powerful technique it was. I no longer needed to look at the keyboard, and my thoughts more easily flowed into the computer. This was a qualitative difference, not just about speed. To continue the driving metaphor, IMO a driver who has had some basic driver education, and achieved some basic level of familiarity with the machine, will be a better driver, even if they never go faster than 40 miles an hour.
  - thaumasiotes 1y ago
    > I used to be a one or two finger typist. > as my touch typing speed approached my hunt and peck speed I started to realize what a powerful technique it was. I no longer needed to look at the keyboard There's no connection between these things. I use two (sometimes three) fingers per hand. Do I need to look at the keyboard? Of course not. I don't need to look at the keyboard because, when I would sneak downstairs to use the computer at night, I didn't want to turn on the lights.

by kgwxd 1y ago

petepete 1y ago

Also the number who click around to position the cursor when they could hold ctrl and skip there in a fraction of the time. Same goes for shift and highlighting.

vintermann 1y ago
There are old studies from the 70s showing that moving the cursor with mouse is faster than navigation keys. Tog famously claimed that Apple's internal studies consistently showed that mouse felt slower than it actually is, whereas keyboard navigation felt faster.
- hbnjgf 1y ago
  I guess it depends on the distance. If you are currently typing and need to get to the beginning of the word, obviously it's way faster to navigate using the keyboard than the mouse. If instead you need to navigate somewhere you don't exactly know the location of, scanning and clicking is faster. Then again, if you happen to know the exact location, going there by command is much faster
  - fc417fc802 1y ago
    Selecting text is also a good example where the mouse is faster. One of the few for me. Having to switch modes, move to a line, then move to a character, then repeat that, is quite cumbersome in comparison. I'll take good keyboard controls for pretty much anything else though.
    - skydhash 1y ago
      With Vim and Emacs, you have nice commands for getting to an exact position. And if you're replacing, you don't need selections. Selection is mostly for copying, cutting, and applying commands.
  - skydhash 1y ago
    > If instead you need to navigate somewhere you don't exactly know the location of, scanning and clicking is faster. Search is better especially with code. I used emacs and vim more than other editors, so I got use to their navigation shortcut. And on macOS, the trackpad is nice and convenient. But I still prefer search and paging shortcuts when I need to scroll.
- petepete 1y ago
  I'm not sure it'll hold up when you factor in moving your hand between the keyboard and mouse repeatedly. Skipping forward 3 words on the line, for example, could be ctrl+right ×3. I can do that faster than I can move my hand from the keyboard to the mouse, let alone drag it around.

FirmwareBurner 1y ago

>devs that can't touch type. Hey, that's me :) Out of curiosity, why is this a yardstick for SW developers? I assumed the more valuable skill of the profession would be critical thinking and problem solving skills, not finger dexterity on pressing buttons without looking. That's why I didn't become a secretary or court stenographer. I mean, a lot of doctors can't hand write for shit, but is that in anyway relevant to being a good doctor? What about SW devs with handicaps or mobility issues? Touch typing feels like a pretty niche hill to die on.

EduardoBautista 1y ago
It’s exactly because of having more valuable things to do that you should have typing just be a subconscious act instead of having to take your eyes off the monitor all the time.
- moron4hire 1y ago
  Exactly. Because of this, I tend to think that there are no useless skills, or skills not worth refining as far as possible. Sure, there is contention for which skill you refine now, but asking yourself "should I get better at X?" in isolation should almost always get answered "yes". The more things you're really good at (typing, mental math, sharpening a knife, fixing your computer, navigating and merging git commits, cooking food, cleaning house, etc), the less time you'll spend on each thing, giving you more time to do other things. Plus, writing code is not the only kind of typing that I expect a developer to do. Even if I could accept that typing speed is not important for writing code, it's certainly important for writing documentation, good commit messages, communication with team mates and stakeholders, etc.
- skydhash 1y ago
  Yes! It's quite nice not to have to think about typing. Just like you don't monitor the way you're handling a pen when you write. It's not related to being a good developer, but when you type as much as you do, having it done quickly and with the help of muscle memory helps with cognitive load. In other words, the only thing I think about is what to write, not how I do it.

Quarrel 1y ago

I'm more worried that there might be lots of devs that can't send a sigint!

lupusreal 1y ago

I know them but I virtually never use them. I've used X for more than 20 years and almost exclusively use the highlight and middle click method (outside of emacs, in which case I use evil bindings)

stronglikedan 1y ago

One of my juniors could not only not touch type, but would hit caps lock, type a letter, and hit caps lock again - every time they wanted to capitalize a word. They just happened to go on to become the most successful dev I've ever mentored and have now forgotten about us little guys, but I always wondered if they still did that.

floam 1y ago
I knew someone smart who did that and it ended up being related to them having shift bound since they were a child to something they used differently than me, to change their inputs to Chinese pinyin.
- thaumasiotes 1y ago
  In Microsoft's input method, shift will toggle you between ascii input and pinyin input while not switching you out of the pinyin input method environment. I tend to use win+space, which instead toggles the input method you're using, as opposed to toggling how the pinyin input method interprets your input. But I had to learn about this secret special functionality of shift, because (some time ago; I don't know if it's still true) after switching your input method with world of warcraft running, the chat UI in the game would become nonresponsive. After all, who ever heard of wanting to switch between different languages while using a chat interface?
  - floam 1y ago
    Interesting, that’s perhaps where the idea came from then. What I witnessed was actually on a MacBook Air running macOS maybe 10-12 years ago, probably a version of macOS before they really improved the native pinyin input. The person had installed a third party input method (icon was an S is all I recall) / manager which changed by default how the shift key worked as you describe, it’d keep using that input method but it’d be in English mode. I recall thinking shift was an insane default but it did explain why she used CAPS LOCK to capitalize single characters.
    - 1y ago

teo_zero 1y ago

> I get freaked out enough seeing devs that can't touch type. Do you get freaked out the same way seeing professional drivers that don't race? I've never related the speed of typing to the quality of coding (maybe to the quantity, but not a reason for being freaked out).

appreciatorBus 1y ago
I don’t think the concern is that they cannot type really really fast as in your comparison of professional drivers who don’t race. In any domain where typing is the dominant activity, it would make sense to invest the small effort it takes to learn to touch type, and to learn basic keyboard shortcuts. You don’t have to reach 120 words per minute for the investment to pay off. I used to be a one or two finger typist. Eventually, I took a touch typing class. For a long while it seemed like a waste of time. I could already type with one or two fingers at 40 words per minute. However, as I became proficient with touch typing, and as my touch typing speed approached my hunt and peck speed I started to realize what a powerful technique it was. I no longer needed to look at the keyboard, and my thoughts more easily flowed into the computer. This was a qualitative difference, not just about speed. To continue the driving metaphor, IMO a driver who has had some basic driver education, and achieved some basic level of familiarity with the machine, will be a better driver, even if they never go faster than 40 miles an hour.
- thaumasiotes 1y ago
  > I used to be a one or two finger typist. > as my touch typing speed approached my hunt and peck speed I started to realize what a powerful technique it was. I no longer needed to look at the keyboard There's no connection between these things. I use two (sometimes three) fingers per hand. Do I need to look at the keyboard? Of course not. I don't need to look at the keyboard because, when I would sneak downstairs to use the computer at night, I didn't want to turn on the lights.