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> The issue is that people become incapable of interrogating why we enjoy what we enjoy. Thinking critically about something is somehow synonymous with a moral

> The issue is that people become incapable of interrogating why we enjoy what we enjoy. Thinking critically about something is somehow synonymous with a moral condemnation of that thing. This is something I have been thinking about for many years. I am always introspecting and trying to understand why I am the way I am. Why do I enjoy what I enjoy. When making assessments I strictly separate moral judgements, from judgements of quality, and from personal taste. I find it very difficult to have meaningful conversations about even basic things, like books or movies, because most people don’t seem to even understand how to answer the question “why do you like it?”

card_zero 1y ago
If you tell somebody that they like pink bows because yadda yadda overconsumption capitalism socialism, that's a personal attack: you're co-opting their enjoyment and insisting they're involved with "the system". If you procede to tell them that you were criticizing "the system" and that they just don't understand that it's not a personal attack, that's another personal attack, because now you're calling them stupid. Trying to get agreement that these are objective observations is like saying "just agree that I'm right about you". Their only option to resist is to engage on the same "deep" level, at which point they've already lost and conceded that it's all about overconsumption capitalism socialism or at least some similar shit.
- chownie 1y ago
  "why do you like this?" != telling someone why they like said thing, this is basically entirely off topic
  - card_zero 1y ago
    > We can — in fact, we must — interrogate the culture and society that simultaneously shapes us as we shape it. It's not optional, you see, it's a moral obligation for everybody who likes fluffy pink whatevers to "think critically about the ways that our consumption or our For You pages might be reflections of that deeply political and social world" ... this amounts to telling them, in general terms, that the reason they like the thing is political. It's a disingenuous "just asking questions" deal where the objective is to talk to them about Marx, like a JW doorstepping you to just ask you whether you've thought about Jesus.
    - chownie 1y ago
      That is, to me, blindingly obvious in that it says to interrogate your own interests, not to interrogate others? My original "this is basically off topic" still applies. If we revisit the original thread comment it doesn't really bring politics into this, or force people to consider their own political interests, or actually mention anything political at all! This is very obviously your own bugbear brought into the conversation uninvited.
- rixed 1y ago
  If you tell your opinion about the origin of someone's taste to that person, it's not a personal attack, it's just you being honest and open to discuss your opinions. If that person takes that as an attack, it just shows how insecure they are about their taste. Which, of course, would certainly lead to another difficult discussion :)
koakuma-chan 1y ago
> most people don’t seem to even understand how to answer the question “why do you like it?” And how do I answer this kind of question?
- Apreche 1y ago
  It depends how far you dig. Let’s say there’s a movie you enjoy. First a person can describe how it made them feel overall. Then they can identify which characteristics and components of the film made them feel a certain way. What was it about those various aspects that caused those feelings? Which parts of the experience were the result of the craftsmanship of the work in question and which parts come from the eye of the beholder? At that point you have to kind of stop digging. Repeatedly asking why will always lead to a psychological or biological explanation, which is too reductive to be relevant.
  - esperent 1y ago
    My take on this is that I don't need to examine my taste in movies that deeply. Unless I find it problematic for some reason, I can just let my taste be as it wills, enjoy what I enjoy. I watch movies to relax, to escape, to connect with people. I don't watch them to deeply analyze either myself or the field of cinema. I do analyze other aspects of my life deeply. My diet, my fitness routines, my family, my relationships, my work, and other personal interests. But nobody has energy or time to analyze everything that they do, any thing that you do spend time analyzing is another thing that you don't. So of you ask me why I liked a particular movie, maybe I'm just gonna say "because explosions go boom", and you shouldn't take that answer to mean that I'm incapable of critical thought. Let's just chill and watch a movie, then save the deep discussions for something else like our work, families, or recent discoveries in physics and medicine (personal interests of mine which I find far more interesting to discuss than cinema). If you do like analyzing your taste in movies, that's great. And if you find other people who like it, that's great too. But it doesn't make you superior to or smarter than people who just watch the stories to relax and zone out for a bit.
    - Apreche 1y ago

card_zero 1y ago

If you tell somebody that they like pink bows because yadda yadda overconsumption capitalism socialism, that's a personal attack: you're co-opting their enjoyment and insisting they're involved with "the system". If you procede to tell them that you were criticizing "the system" and that they just don't understand that it's not a personal attack, that's another personal attack, because now you're calling them stupid. Trying to get agreement that these are objective observations is like saying "just agree that I'm right about you". Their only option to resist is to engage on the same "deep" level, at which point they've already lost and conceded that it's all about overconsumption capitalism socialism or at least some similar shit.

chownie 1y ago
"why do you like this?" != telling someone why they like said thing, this is basically entirely off topic
- card_zero 1y ago
  > We can — in fact, we must — interrogate the culture and society that simultaneously shapes us as we shape it. It's not optional, you see, it's a moral obligation for everybody who likes fluffy pink whatevers to "think critically about the ways that our consumption or our For You pages might be reflections of that deeply political and social world" ... this amounts to telling them, in general terms, that the reason they like the thing is political. It's a disingenuous "just asking questions" deal where the objective is to talk to them about Marx, like a JW doorstepping you to just ask you whether you've thought about Jesus.
  - chownie 1y ago
    That is, to me, blindingly obvious in that it says to interrogate your own interests, not to interrogate others? My original "this is basically off topic" still applies. If we revisit the original thread comment it doesn't really bring politics into this, or force people to consider their own political interests, or actually mention anything political at all! This is very obviously your own bugbear brought into the conversation uninvited.
rixed 1y ago
If you tell your opinion about the origin of someone's taste to that person, it's not a personal attack, it's just you being honest and open to discuss your opinions. If that person takes that as an attack, it just shows how insecure they are about their taste. Which, of course, would certainly lead to another difficult discussion :)

koakuma-chan 1y ago

> most people don’t seem to even understand how to answer the question “why do you like it?” And how do I answer this kind of question?

Apreche 1y ago
It depends how far you dig. Let’s say there’s a movie you enjoy. First a person can describe how it made them feel overall. Then they can identify which characteristics and components of the film made them feel a certain way. What was it about those various aspects that caused those feelings? Which parts of the experience were the result of the craftsmanship of the work in question and which parts come from the eye of the beholder? At that point you have to kind of stop digging. Repeatedly asking why will always lead to a psychological or biological explanation, which is too reductive to be relevant.
- esperent 1y ago
  My take on this is that I don't need to examine my taste in movies that deeply. Unless I find it problematic for some reason, I can just let my taste be as it wills, enjoy what I enjoy. I watch movies to relax, to escape, to connect with people. I don't watch them to deeply analyze either myself or the field of cinema. I do analyze other aspects of my life deeply. My diet, my fitness routines, my family, my relationships, my work, and other personal interests. But nobody has energy or time to analyze everything that they do, any thing that you do spend time analyzing is another thing that you don't. So of you ask me why I liked a particular movie, maybe I'm just gonna say "because explosions go boom", and you shouldn't take that answer to mean that I'm incapable of critical thought. Let's just chill and watch a movie, then save the deep discussions for something else like our work, families, or recent discoveries in physics and medicine (personal interests of mine which I find far more interesting to discuss than cinema). If you do like analyzing your taste in movies, that's great. And if you find other people who like it, that's great too. But it doesn't make you superior to or smarter than people who just watch the stories to relax and zone out for a bit.
  - Apreche 1y ago