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No, it's not a blow to innovation. The only reason Apple went after Samsung and not HTC or other Android handset manufacturers is because Samsung has gone into

by catch23 14y ago

No, it's not a blow to innovation. The only reason Apple went after Samsung and not HTC or other Android handset manufacturers is because Samsung has gone into detail copying every small feature from Apple. If you look into Samsung's prior history, you'll see they do this for every popular product on the market -- it's part of their business model, and it's not focused specifically on copying Apple. They copied Motorola products before the iPhone came on the scene. The details of the blatant copying are addressed in that 127 page "smoking gun" that was released recently. I think businesses that focus on cloning other people's successful products actually reduce innovation because the innovation comes from the initial product inception, not from a copy. If cloning actually increased innovation, we should be seeing lots of innovative products come out of china since they're so good at making copies of other people's products.

ChuckMcM 14y ago
Are you saying that now that this case is 'over' and Apple won it, they won't sue anyone else on the same patents? If so I think that is pretty naive. If you look at other cases you will see that Apple will be compelled to sue everyone else, and/or get a license from them for these patents. If they did not do that then Samsung would be able to argue that Apple didn't really believe in their patents, they were just trying to put Samsung out of business. That at least is well understood, you can lose the protection of your trademarks or design patents if you don't enforce them.
- catch23 14y ago
  Sadly, the case is far from over. Both companies will say they will appeal until they win so it may last as long as SCO vs IBM. From Apple's statement, I believe they went after Samsung because of their blatant copying. There have been other manufacturers that Apple have not gone after because the copying was not as significant as Samsung's. Personally, I think someone has to reprimand companies that make a business out of cloning others. It happens all the time, but it's often hard to enforce. I think you're one of those HN readers that think this is Apple vs Android, but really it's a case against Samsung and their cloning behavior. Few companies out there act like Samsung and get away with it. Also, I think you're a bit extreme in your arguments. Apple is not going to put Samsung out of business; Samsung makes everything from air conditioning units to memory chips.
  - ChuckMcM 14y ago
    Perhaps we're talking past each other. "Personally, I think someone has to reprimand companies that make a business out of cloning others. It happens all the time, but it's often hard to enforce." It is the nature of free market economies that successful products will get emulated. Compaq emulating the IBM PC, Char-Broil emulating the Weber griil, Ford emulating the Toyota Camry, Microsoft emulating Netscape, Apple emulating the Xerox windowing system, Burger King emulating McDonalds, Airbus emulating Boeing, it just goes on and on. That is what is generally referred to as competition, sort of "if you thing you can do it better, then bring it on." And within that competition there are often signature "styles" which are distinctive to a company, so it would probably have been a bad idea if Airbus had given their A380 a 'hump' on the front like the Boeing 747. And there is a whole bunch or case law about what is and what is not acceptable. The question on trial here was did Samsung cross the line in emulating Apple products. As you know, those of us outside the courtroom had access to all of the arguments and evidence about whether or not Samsung copied too much, or if Apple was accusing Samsung of copying their own copied work. The judge in this case emasculated Samsung's argument by denying the admittance of evidence which had exonerated them in other courts. A number of folks (and I'm one of them) feel that many of the claims in Apple's design patents were flawed by both being obvious and there being prior art to indicate that any ordinary person skilled in the art who was given the task could have independently arrived at the same design elements. So some folks, like me, don't think Samsung got a fair trial. That's just opinion of course and they've got one of, if not the top IP Litigation Firm working for them so if you can't get a fair trial (opinion) with Quinn Emmanuel, well it doesn't bode well for anyone. So if you are a designer at a start-up, or even at a reasonably sized company, and your company is trying to compete against a market leading product that you think you can do better. But given that you now know that you can make no assumptions about what is 'fair use' or 'prior art' or 'obvious' you might be inclined to believe that if you made a device that had icons and made phone calls you were infringing on some random Apple patent and would get yourself sued out of existence. You see the way Samsung got treated and you say "Crap even if I've got a friggin' article in the New York times that pre-dates their patent they will figure out some way to keep that out of the trial and still kill me." We can debate all day about whether or not Apple would do that to our hapless designer we know they just did that to Samsung so we know its possible. And if you are putting the company at risk by getting near that Apple monster your Board of Directors will fire you faster than a guy who lied about his degree on a resume. That is the way that intimidation works, the US Gov't hasn't used nuclear weapons in anger in nearly 70 years but they did that one time. You claimed that this case was not 'a blow to innovation', I rebutted that by saying that the chilling effects of this case would lead to significantly less innovation. If you want to argue your case you have to show how people can continue to innovate in the smart phone space and defend themselves against a litigious competitor like Apple has been shown to be. And part of that rebuttal has to be some compelling narrative about how the trial was 'fair'. That, for me is a hard one to get past.
kenster07 14y ago
You are clearly avoiding the point about a patent for rounded corners and rectangles, and instead relying on ad hominem attacks without providing any supporting evidence. Your post is a blow to innovation.
fpgeek 14y ago
> The only reason Apple went after Samsung and not HTC or other Android handset manufacturers is because Samsung has gone into detail copying every small feature from Apple. I think it would be news to HTC that Apple didn't come after them. They must have just imagined the import ban that limited supplies of the One X and delayed the launch of the Evo 4G LTE: http://news.cnet.com/8301-13579_3-57435081-37/htc-phone-imports-held-up-over-apple-dispute/ http://news.cnet.com/8301-13579_3-57435081-37/htc-phone-impo... Throw in Motorola and you have Apple going after the top 3 Android manufacturers in the US market (and, until ASUS and the Nexus 7, the only three manufacturers of Nexus / Google Experience devices).

by catch23 14y ago

ChuckMcM 14y ago

Are you saying that now that this case is 'over' and Apple won it, they won't sue anyone else on the same patents? If so I think that is pretty naive. If you look at other cases you will see that Apple will be compelled to sue everyone else, and/or get a license from them for these patents. If they did not do that then Samsung would be able to argue that Apple didn't really believe in their patents, they were just trying to put Samsung out of business. That at least is well understood, you can lose the protection of your trademarks or design patents if you don't enforce them.

catch23 14y ago
Sadly, the case is far from over. Both companies will say they will appeal until they win so it may last as long as SCO vs IBM. From Apple's statement, I believe they went after Samsung because of their blatant copying. There have been other manufacturers that Apple have not gone after because the copying was not as significant as Samsung's. Personally, I think someone has to reprimand companies that make a business out of cloning others. It happens all the time, but it's often hard to enforce. I think you're one of those HN readers that think this is Apple vs Android, but really it's a case against Samsung and their cloning behavior. Few companies out there act like Samsung and get away with it. Also, I think you're a bit extreme in your arguments. Apple is not going to put Samsung out of business; Samsung makes everything from air conditioning units to memory chips.
- ChuckMcM 14y ago
  Perhaps we're talking past each other. "Personally, I think someone has to reprimand companies that make a business out of cloning others. It happens all the time, but it's often hard to enforce." It is the nature of free market economies that successful products will get emulated. Compaq emulating the IBM PC, Char-Broil emulating the Weber griil, Ford emulating the Toyota Camry, Microsoft emulating Netscape, Apple emulating the Xerox windowing system, Burger King emulating McDonalds, Airbus emulating Boeing, it just goes on and on. That is what is generally referred to as competition, sort of "if you thing you can do it better, then bring it on." And within that competition there are often signature "styles" which are distinctive to a company, so it would probably have been a bad idea if Airbus had given their A380 a 'hump' on the front like the Boeing 747. And there is a whole bunch or case law about what is and what is not acceptable. The question on trial here was did Samsung cross the line in emulating Apple products. As you know, those of us outside the courtroom had access to all of the arguments and evidence about whether or not Samsung copied too much, or if Apple was accusing Samsung of copying their own copied work. The judge in this case emasculated Samsung's argument by denying the admittance of evidence which had exonerated them in other courts. A number of folks (and I'm one of them) feel that many of the claims in Apple's design patents were flawed by both being obvious and there being prior art to indicate that any ordinary person skilled in the art who was given the task could have independently arrived at the same design elements. So some folks, like me, don't think Samsung got a fair trial. That's just opinion of course and they've got one of, if not the top IP Litigation Firm working for them so if you can't get a fair trial (opinion) with Quinn Emmanuel, well it doesn't bode well for anyone. So if you are a designer at a start-up, or even at a reasonably sized company, and your company is trying to compete against a market leading product that you think you can do better. But given that you now know that you can make no assumptions about what is 'fair use' or 'prior art' or 'obvious' you might be inclined to believe that if you made a device that had icons and made phone calls you were infringing on some random Apple patent and would get yourself sued out of existence. You see the way Samsung got treated and you say "Crap even if I've got a friggin' article in the New York times that pre-dates their patent they will figure out some way to keep that out of the trial and still kill me." We can debate all day about whether or not Apple would do that to our hapless designer we know they just did that to Samsung so we know its possible. And if you are putting the company at risk by getting near that Apple monster your Board of Directors will fire you faster than a guy who lied about his degree on a resume. That is the way that intimidation works, the US Gov't hasn't used nuclear weapons in anger in nearly 70 years but they did that one time. You claimed that this case was not 'a blow to innovation', I rebutted that by saying that the chilling effects of this case would lead to significantly less innovation. If you want to argue your case you have to show how people can continue to innovate in the smart phone space and defend themselves against a litigious competitor like Apple has been shown to be. And part of that rebuttal has to be some compelling narrative about how the trial was 'fair'. That, for me is a hard one to get past.

kenster07 14y ago

You are clearly avoiding the point about a patent for rounded corners and rectangles, and instead relying on ad hominem attacks without providing any supporting evidence. Your post is a blow to innovation.

fpgeek 14y ago

> The only reason Apple went after Samsung and not HTC or other Android handset manufacturers is because Samsung has gone into detail copying every small feature from Apple. I think it would be news to HTC that Apple didn't come after them. They must have just imagined the import ban that limited supplies of the One X and delayed the launch of the Evo 4G LTE: http://news.cnet.com/8301-13579_3-57435081-37/htc-phone-imports-held-up-over-apple-dispute/ http://news.cnet.com/8301-13579_3-57435081-37/htc-phone-impo... Throw in Motorola and you have Apple going after the top 3 Android manufacturers in the US market (and, until ASUS and the Nexus 7, the only three manufacturers of Nexus / Google Experience devices).