3 ms·

What about “let’s ban things with demonstrated negative impacts and reasonable alternatives”? Or should we just sacrifice everything on the alter of vaguely de

by padjo 1y ago

What about “let’s ban things with demonstrated negative impacts and reasonable alternatives”? Or should we just sacrifice everything on the alter of vaguely defined “freedom”?

userbinator 1y ago
"reasonable alternatives"? Look how well paper straws work... and they're still coated in thin film of plastic anyway. Total stupidity, except for those who are making $$$ from convincing us that they're somehow better. Plastic bags fulfill a need for a very lightweight, flexible, waterproof container. The alternatives all require more energy overall, which eventually results in CO2 emissions, so if you believe in climate change, that's not good either. The only argument I've heard against them is "they look bad littered everywhere", which is a purely subjective opinion and one that is better handled, should one want to tackle the problem, by other means than depriving the majority who doesn't litter.
- padjo 1y ago
  My country switched to reusable bags almost 25 years ago by introducing a levy on their use. Plastic bag litter has basically been eliminated by this change. I don’t know what alternative you have in mind but the research and experience is there to say levies work to reduce litter. I’ve been using the same bags for about 20 years and they will probably last until I die. The alternative would be around 20,000 disposable bags. I have a hard time believing the lifecycle cost of my 3 bags is higher.
  - tgsovlerkhgsel 1y ago
    By one of the 7 metrics analyzed, the lifecycle use of 3 organic cotton bags would have been considered higher by the Danish study (https://www2.mst.dk/udgiv/publications/2018/02/978-87-93614-73-4.pdf https://www2.mst.dk/udgiv/publications/2018/02/978-87-93614-...), but that's obviously the most extreme example and not representative. I also think that you reusing the same bags for 20 years and never forgetting them is an extreme example and not representative, and when you're at the cashier and realize you forgot your bags, the only realistic option if single use bags have been regulated away is buying another reusable-but-will-see-a-single-use bag. I have a drawer full of those, and I think I've already thrown one bag full of those out during my last move. More importantly, the annoyance from this and dissolving paper straws has made me swear to never vote for a "green" party that pushes these performative bans (plastic bag litter has never been a major problem in my area), even though I would agree with many of their other policies, both social and environmental. But I'm not going to vote for someone who will go out of their way to add annoyances to my life.
    - morsch 1y ago
      From the study: Conventional cotton bags: Reuse for grocery shopping at least 52 times for climate change, and up to 7100 times considering all indicators; reuse as waste bin bag if possible, otherwise incinerate. 50 times seems real easy, all of mine have been used more often than that. 7000 seems hard to accomplish in a lifetime, though, to me anyway. If I forgot to bring one at a store, I buy a paper bag (which get good grades in the study) and reuse it for paper recycling. Or I reuse discarded cardboard containers available in the store.
    - padjo 1y ago
      I do occasionally forget a bag and have to but a biopolymer or LDPE bag. That doesn’t really impact my totals over a lifetime since it’s a rare occurrence. My bags are woven polyproplene, which the study you linked indicates I need to use about 50 times. I have certainly used them many multiple times more than that. I think your stance on green politics is quite odd. I’m unaware of any Green Party pushing a ban on plastic straws, in my country signature Green Party policies have been levies on single use plastic bags, plastic container deposit return schemes, the phase out of incandescent lighting, development of renewable energy and reducing the cost of public transport. All of which have measurable impacts on energy use and pollution. In my experience the notion that they push “performative” policies just isn’t true.
      - tgsovlerkhgsel 1y ago
        > and have to but a biopolymer or LDPE bag. As long as those still exist, that's fine. I'm talking about the scenario where they have been regulated away (or companies have removed them to look more "green" and make more profit on more expensive bags), so each time this happens, you have to buy a new "reusable" bag. Which quickly nullifies the benefit. The LDPE bags also have the advantage of being quite awesome for (limited) reuse. They certainly are no "bag for life" but they can be reused a couple of times, and fold down much more compactly than many of the other types. > unaware of any Green Party pushing a ban on plastic straws The EU actually passed that as legislation in 2018 or 2019, which also makes it hard to find sources for who pushed it (the final agreement was a compromise so it passed with wide support, and the initial proposal came from the commission which isn't very transparent). The best I can give you is this press release by the Greens/EFA (the EU parliament fraction encompassing many of the green parties) https://www.greens-efa.eu/en/article/press/single-use-plastics-have-no-place-in-the-eu-economy https://www.greens-efa.eu/en/article/press/single-use-plasti... This is directly related to the ban that is now in effect. In Switzerland, I've not seen attempts to ban straws, likely because they've seen how unpopular it is and it would likely get overturned by a referendum, but the Greens repeatedly show up with demands or attempts to ban plastic bags.
- tclancy 1y ago
  You forgot to mention that paper straws can explode! If the only argument you’ve heard against plastic bags is they look bad, you need to listen more.
quickthrowman 1y ago
Most uses of plastic do not have a reasonable alternative. Glass and metal have properties similar to plastic but require more energy to produce, more material and are heavier which increases freight costs.
- johnisgood 1y ago
  Pretty much. We need better alternatives! Better in many ways. Cheap to mass produce, convenient to use, must be reusable, has to be light, has to be biodegradable, should not dissolve after a while (like these cardboard boxes they put my food in).
  - userbinator 1y ago
    Those are unfortunately conflicting requirements.

by padjo 1y ago

What about “let’s ban things with demonstrated negative impacts and reasonable alternatives”? Or should we just sacrifice everything on the alter of vaguely defined “freedom”?

userbinator 1y ago

"reasonable alternatives"? Look how well paper straws work... and they're still coated in thin film of plastic anyway. Total stupidity, except for those who are making $$$ from convincing us that they're somehow better. Plastic bags fulfill a need for a very lightweight, flexible, waterproof container. The alternatives all require more energy overall, which eventually results in CO2 emissions, so if you believe in climate change, that's not good either. The only argument I've heard against them is "they look bad littered everywhere", which is a purely subjective opinion and one that is better handled, should one want to tackle the problem, by other means than depriving the majority who doesn't litter.

padjo 1y ago
My country switched to reusable bags almost 25 years ago by introducing a levy on their use. Plastic bag litter has basically been eliminated by this change. I don’t know what alternative you have in mind but the research and experience is there to say levies work to reduce litter. I’ve been using the same bags for about 20 years and they will probably last until I die. The alternative would be around 20,000 disposable bags. I have a hard time believing the lifecycle cost of my 3 bags is higher.
- tgsovlerkhgsel 1y ago
  By one of the 7 metrics analyzed, the lifecycle use of 3 organic cotton bags would have been considered higher by the Danish study (https://www2.mst.dk/udgiv/publications/2018/02/978-87-93614-73-4.pdf https://www2.mst.dk/udgiv/publications/2018/02/978-87-93614-...), but that's obviously the most extreme example and not representative. I also think that you reusing the same bags for 20 years and never forgetting them is an extreme example and not representative, and when you're at the cashier and realize you forgot your bags, the only realistic option if single use bags have been regulated away is buying another reusable-but-will-see-a-single-use bag. I have a drawer full of those, and I think I've already thrown one bag full of those out during my last move. More importantly, the annoyance from this and dissolving paper straws has made me swear to never vote for a "green" party that pushes these performative bans (plastic bag litter has never been a major problem in my area), even though I would agree with many of their other policies, both social and environmental. But I'm not going to vote for someone who will go out of their way to add annoyances to my life.
  - morsch 1y ago
    From the study: Conventional cotton bags: Reuse for grocery shopping at least 52 times for climate change, and up to 7100 times considering all indicators; reuse as waste bin bag if possible, otherwise incinerate. 50 times seems real easy, all of mine have been used more often than that. 7000 seems hard to accomplish in a lifetime, though, to me anyway. If I forgot to bring one at a store, I buy a paper bag (which get good grades in the study) and reuse it for paper recycling. Or I reuse discarded cardboard containers available in the store.
  - padjo 1y ago
    I do occasionally forget a bag and have to but a biopolymer or LDPE bag. That doesn’t really impact my totals over a lifetime since it’s a rare occurrence. My bags are woven polyproplene, which the study you linked indicates I need to use about 50 times. I have certainly used them many multiple times more than that. I think your stance on green politics is quite odd. I’m unaware of any Green Party pushing a ban on plastic straws, in my country signature Green Party policies have been levies on single use plastic bags, plastic container deposit return schemes, the phase out of incandescent lighting, development of renewable energy and reducing the cost of public transport. All of which have measurable impacts on energy use and pollution. In my experience the notion that they push “performative” policies just isn’t true.
    - tgsovlerkhgsel 1y ago
      > and have to but a biopolymer or LDPE bag. As long as those still exist, that's fine. I'm talking about the scenario where they have been regulated away (or companies have removed them to look more "green" and make more profit on more expensive bags), so each time this happens, you have to buy a new "reusable" bag. Which quickly nullifies the benefit. The LDPE bags also have the advantage of being quite awesome for (limited) reuse. They certainly are no "bag for life" but they can be reused a couple of times, and fold down much more compactly than many of the other types. > unaware of any Green Party pushing a ban on plastic straws The EU actually passed that as legislation in 2018 or 2019, which also makes it hard to find sources for who pushed it (the final agreement was a compromise so it passed with wide support, and the initial proposal came from the commission which isn't very transparent). The best I can give you is this press release by the Greens/EFA (the EU parliament fraction encompassing many of the green parties) https://www.greens-efa.eu/en/article/press/single-use-plastics-have-no-place-in-the-eu-economy https://www.greens-efa.eu/en/article/press/single-use-plasti... This is directly related to the ban that is now in effect. In Switzerland, I've not seen attempts to ban straws, likely because they've seen how unpopular it is and it would likely get overturned by a referendum, but the Greens repeatedly show up with demands or attempts to ban plastic bags.
tclancy 1y ago
You forgot to mention that paper straws can explode! If the only argument you’ve heard against plastic bags is they look bad, you need to listen more.

quickthrowman 1y ago

Most uses of plastic do not have a reasonable alternative. Glass and metal have properties similar to plastic but require more energy to produce, more material and are heavier which increases freight costs.

johnisgood 1y ago
Pretty much. We need better alternatives! Better in many ways. Cheap to mass produce, convenient to use, must be reusable, has to be light, has to be biodegradable, should not dissolve after a while (like these cardboard boxes they put my food in).
- userbinator 1y ago
  Those are unfortunately conflicting requirements.