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It creates a Hobson's choice of no tinkering and less malware, or tinkering and greater risks from malware. There should be a "maintenance mode", but the onus o

It creates a Hobson's choice of no tinkering and less malware, or tinkering and greater risks from malware. There should be a "maintenance mode", but the onus of responsibility for breakage should be on the user for system update compatibility without the user being held hostage. This is a false choice and ostensible customizability. If the manufacturer wants to add an "OS warranty void sticker" flag because things maybe broken from tweaking, that's cool, but leaving the user less secure as punishment is wrong.

sprinkly-dust 1y ago
It is my experience that this is what Google does with their Pixel phones. It is really quite simple to unlock the bootloader and do whatever you want on a Google Pixel you own (i.e unlocked, no carrier). They even give you this really handy Android flash tool which uses WebUSB to fully restore your device when you mess up. Heck, custom ROMs like GrapheneOS and CalyxOS are even able to sign their own images and allow you to lock the bootloader with a non Google OS. However, all this comes with the caveat that SafetyNet will flay you alive. The cat and mouse game with Magisk and other methods to maintain root undetected is moot when I've used apps these days that make a fuss when you have developer settings enabled. To be honest, that seems acceptable to me, I can do what I want with my device, software vendors like banks and the like have a say in how I choose to access their more convenient services. I can play nice with them if I want, even using a second phone perhaps, but I have a choice.
- encom 1y ago
  >banks and the like have a say in how I choose to access their more convenient services I disagree. I don't understand how it's fine that I can access my banking services with my Gentoo machine, with everything compiled from source by myself, but it's somehow a problem when I'm not using either Apple or Google certified OS on my phone. I'm sure they want to prevent the first scenario, like various streaming cartels already do, but I hope something like EU throws a fit if they do.
  - keyringlight 1y ago
    What kind of actions can gentoo do with your financial accounts, and what levels of user authentication does it use to do it? My phone can effectively act as a bank card with contactless payment or I can transfer up to a daily allowance (that would be painful to me if it was misused) of thousands with biometric auth. Similar to the OS if you're doing that with any browser with a web login you could potentially compile it to behave how you like or lie about what it's doing Because it's a bank there's going to be insurance behind the scenes to cover them if something goes wrong, and I assume part of that is ticking off enough points to be confident a transaction is secure or different payment limits on confidence levels.
- burnt-resistor 1y ago
  Nice. I wish Pixels (and recent iPhones Pros) were more repairable. Pixels are the least repairable phone around, so don't drop it at least not without a rugged case. ;)
JumpCrisscross 1y ago
> There should be a "maintenance mode", but the onus of responsibility for breakage should be on the user for system update compatibility without the user being held hostage Isn’t this just a second device? How can you hold a manufacturer liable if the user was given unsupervised time as root?
- hilbert42 1y ago
  "How can you hold a manufacturer liable if the user was given unsupervised time as root?" PCs had root access by default, so why wasn't it a significant problem for them? Banking is possible on a PC without a banking app. As Noam Chomsky has said, as in politics, manufacturers and OS vendors such as Google and Microsoft have been deliberately "manufacturing concent" — a widespread belief in the population of users that benefits them to the disadvantage of many of said users.
  - JumpCrisscross 1y ago
    > PCs had root access by default, so why wasn't it a significant problem for them? They weren't networked. They were notoriously buggy. And most importantly, they weren't warrantied [1]. Root should always be an option. But once you root, it's fair for the warranty to be voided. > OS vendors such as Google and Microsoft have been deliberately "manufacturing concent" Nitpick, the propaganda model [2] attempts to describe traditional mass media. Two of its five pillars (ownership and sourcing) fall apart in a world with smartphones and social media. [1] https://www.studocu.com/ph/document/university-of-rizal-system/social-and-professional-issues/computer-reliability-software-warranties-and-vendor-liability-chapter-8/21126268 https://www.studocu.com/ph/document/university-of-rizal-syst... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda_model#Criticism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda_model#Criticism
    - hilbert42 1y ago
      Uh? My PCs and corporate PCs I've been responsible for are networked including the internet (they always have been). Moreover, they were warranted with no conditions about what software was run on them. Where on earth did you get that notion from? Just because some vendor [your links] has conned the unfortunate client into an unacceptable contract doesn't mean it's commonplace or ever was.

sprinkly-dust 1y ago

It is my experience that this is what Google does with their Pixel phones. It is really quite simple to unlock the bootloader and do whatever you want on a Google Pixel you own (i.e unlocked, no carrier). They even give you this really handy Android flash tool which uses WebUSB to fully restore your device when you mess up. Heck, custom ROMs like GrapheneOS and CalyxOS are even able to sign their own images and allow you to lock the bootloader with a non Google OS. However, all this comes with the caveat that SafetyNet will flay you alive. The cat and mouse game with Magisk and other methods to maintain root undetected is moot when I've used apps these days that make a fuss when you have developer settings enabled. To be honest, that seems acceptable to me, I can do what I want with my device, software vendors like banks and the like have a say in how I choose to access their more convenient services. I can play nice with them if I want, even using a second phone perhaps, but I have a choice.

encom 1y ago
>banks and the like have a say in how I choose to access their more convenient services I disagree. I don't understand how it's fine that I can access my banking services with my Gentoo machine, with everything compiled from source by myself, but it's somehow a problem when I'm not using either Apple or Google certified OS on my phone. I'm sure they want to prevent the first scenario, like various streaming cartels already do, but I hope something like EU throws a fit if they do.
- keyringlight 1y ago
  What kind of actions can gentoo do with your financial accounts, and what levels of user authentication does it use to do it? My phone can effectively act as a bank card with contactless payment or I can transfer up to a daily allowance (that would be painful to me if it was misused) of thousands with biometric auth. Similar to the OS if you're doing that with any browser with a web login you could potentially compile it to behave how you like or lie about what it's doing Because it's a bank there's going to be insurance behind the scenes to cover them if something goes wrong, and I assume part of that is ticking off enough points to be confident a transaction is secure or different payment limits on confidence levels.
burnt-resistor 1y ago
Nice. I wish Pixels (and recent iPhones Pros) were more repairable. Pixels are the least repairable phone around, so don't drop it at least not without a rugged case. ;)

JumpCrisscross 1y ago

> There should be a "maintenance mode", but the onus of responsibility for breakage should be on the user for system update compatibility without the user being held hostage Isn’t this just a second device? How can you hold a manufacturer liable if the user was given unsupervised time as root?

hilbert42 1y ago
"How can you hold a manufacturer liable if the user was given unsupervised time as root?" PCs had root access by default, so why wasn't it a significant problem for them? Banking is possible on a PC without a banking app. As Noam Chomsky has said, as in politics, manufacturers and OS vendors such as Google and Microsoft have been deliberately "manufacturing concent" — a widespread belief in the population of users that benefits them to the disadvantage of many of said users.
- JumpCrisscross 1y ago
  > PCs had root access by default, so why wasn't it a significant problem for them? They weren't networked. They were notoriously buggy. And most importantly, they weren't warrantied [1]. Root should always be an option. But once you root, it's fair for the warranty to be voided. > OS vendors such as Google and Microsoft have been deliberately "manufacturing concent" Nitpick, the propaganda model [2] attempts to describe traditional mass media. Two of its five pillars (ownership and sourcing) fall apart in a world with smartphones and social media. [1] https://www.studocu.com/ph/document/university-of-rizal-system/social-and-professional-issues/computer-reliability-software-warranties-and-vendor-liability-chapter-8/21126268 https://www.studocu.com/ph/document/university-of-rizal-syst... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda_model#Criticism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda_model#Criticism
  - hilbert42 1y ago
    Uh? My PCs and corporate PCs I've been responsible for are networked including the internet (they always have been). Moreover, they were warranted with no conditions about what software was run on them. Where on earth did you get that notion from? Just because some vendor [your links] has conned the unfortunate client into an unacceptable contract doesn't mean it's commonplace or ever was.