7 ms·

byd has a seagull model that's basically exactly that for $10k. Don't see why they wouldn't bring it to the US absent tarrifs.

ranger_danger 1y ago
Because it would destroy the auto industry overnight.
- johnea 1y ago
  You say that like its a bad thing...
  - dyauspitr 1y ago
    It is. I want American auto manufacturing to continue to be a thing. With this administration most industries will see 4 years of technological and competitive regression though so it’s probably a losing battle.
    - johnea 1y ago
      Please see this reply: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44339924 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44339924
  - ranger_danger 1y ago
    Yes I think it is, because over time it becomes too great an amount of leverage that another country can use to hold over your head.
    - johnea 1y ago
      So you don't actually believe in competition?
      - timschmidt 1y ago
        I think most disagreements come down to people wanting similar things at different scales. It sounds like you're thinking of competition at the corporate scale. It sounds like the commenter immediately previous is thinking of competition at the nation state scale. Both (and more) are happening at the same time, and valid to optimize for.
        johnea 1y ago
        Please see this reply: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44339924 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44339924
        timschmidt 1y ago
        I see what you're talking about, however, still find much to disagree with in that comment. > US auto industry ownership unilaterally sent US auto manufacturing to China! While the US auto industry did move manufacturing out of the US, this statement is factually incorrect in multiple ways. First, the auto manufacturers largely moved their operations to Mexico and Canada, not China. And second, this happened after https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_Free_Trade_Agreement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_Free_Trade_Agre... an international trade agreement negotiated at the federal government level which made doing so possible and profitable. Doubtless industry lobbyists were involved, however the action was not unilateral in any sense. Similarly, federal and international policy is capable of making it economically sensible to bring that manufacturing back onto US shores. > China's already making most of what we consume here, and they're making world leading innovation in the EV market. So why aren't we just importing the EVs from there like we import everything else? You rail against regulatory protectionism for US heavy industry but seem unaware that all nations with heavy industry engage in same. China imposes tariffs on importing US autos, as does most of Europe, Japan, S. Korea, and anywhere else seeking to maintain some form of local heavy manufacturing, which is seen as a national asset, particularly during war time and other emergencies like pandemics. > The answer of course, is nowhere. There is no such thing in modern US big industry capitalism. It's a big f_cking lie! Last I checked, 75% of Teslas components are US made. > The only thing modern US capitalism is focused on innovating is how to f_ck the consumer, the worker, and the vendor, a little more completely, in favor of shareholders. I'm sure we all needed more financialization of everything. This can be fairly directly traced to the Harvard Business School in the '80s. I think there's a legitimate axe to grind with them and vulture capitalists they trained. But it seems you're ready to throw the baby out with the bathwater over it. The US needs manufacturing to continue to prosper. Some amount of protectionism toward manufacturing is practiced worldwide, even by China, and can be acceptable here too. And while it seems you're very worried about addressing climate change, and I am too, I think we can work toward that as a nation without abdicating our agency.
  - bsder 1y ago
    BYD wiping out the Big 3 would also wipe out a significant amount of manufacturing that is "auto industry adjacent". How much more industry do you want to see wiped out in the US? We already can't produce paper masks or toilet paper, for example ... I want the Big 3 to die horrible flaming death, but they need to get replaced by something else domestic. Letting anybody (let alone BYD) simply wipe out all our domestic manufacturing capacity is mega-bad.
    - johnea 1y ago
      I want to start by saying: I'm in general agreement with what you say here. Now, the But: But, it's very important to acknowledge who's responsible for the decline in US manufacturing. BYD isn't "wiping out", the US auto industry. China didn't sneak into the US and steal the factories, the government didn't edict that things be made in China, and tree-hugging hippy libtards didn't give everything away to commonism. US auto industry ownership unilaterally sent US auto manufacturing to China! And has thus reaped many many billions in increased profits, over decades, as a result of throwing American workers, American consumers, and the US's strategic competitiveness under the bus, for the purpose of their own personal profit. Now, somehow, it's China's fault! for being the world's preeminent manufacturing center. And now somehow, US taxpayers (that's us, the idiot herd, not ownership) need to make big payments to Make Manufacturing Great Again. This is just another example of the typical policy of socialist welfare for ownership, and neoliberal austerity for the idiot herd. This is like how the taxpayers pay to build a nuclear power plant, then a private utility operates it for decades while money pours out of it, then, when it's time to clean up the super-fund site scale of radioactive pollution, that's again the responsibility of socialism. Why should US auto industry innovate? China's already making most of what we consume here, and they're making world leading innovation in the EV market. So why aren't we just importing the EVs from there like we import everything else? It's not like this is all some big surprise. The problems with continuing to burn petro, the massive simplification of vehicular mechanisms and the improvements in lifespan and reliability resulting from electrification have all been known for decades. Where's all this capitalist competition driving technical innovation? The answer of course, is nowhere. There is no such thing in modern US big industry capitalism. It's a big f_cking lie! The only thing modern US capitalism is focused on innovating is how to f_ck the consumer, the worker, and the vendor, a little more completely, in favor of shareholders. I'm sure we all needed more financialization of everything. I'm not an absolutist. I think capitalism is basically the only system that's ever been in place in human civilization, and the most straightforward way to prosperity is via that system. But (again with the But) it needs to operate more in line with what is preached: competitive markets leading to innovation that benefits everyone, not just shareholders. Another large portion of the blame lies on the uneducated, irrational US consumer population. Denial of the realities of the consequences of continuing to burn petro, denial of the benefits of electrification across the board. While people talk about their need for "pride" and "faith". This sounds like a bunch of emo bullsh1t to me. Where's the objective, rational analysis? It's no wonder the US consumer gets shafted by industry, it's pretty much begged for. So, while you're general assertions are true. The widely ignored realities of how we got into this mess, and who should be making changes to get us out of this mess, are almost never mentioned out load.
omgwtfbyobbq 1y ago
I think it's closer to $16k-$20k without subsidies. https://electrek.co/2024/05/22/byds-10000-seagull-ev-worrying-rivals-hits-new-markets/ https://electrek.co/2024/05/22/byds-10000-seagull-ev-worryin...
- cosmic_cheese 1y ago
  Still cheap by US standards. Cheap basic cars barely even exist any more.
- slaw 1y ago
  It is $8k before current 15% subsides. https://electrek.co/2025/04/08/byds-low-cost-seagull-ev-now-starts-under-8000-china/ https://electrek.co/2025/04/08/byds-low-cost-seagull-ev-now-...
  - omgwtfbyobbq 1y ago
    That's only in China, presumably at a steep discount because of the EV price war between manufacturers. In Mexico it's called the Dolphin and costs $20k+. I'm sure some of that is tariffs, but I don't think it's an $8k+ vehicle unless it's being discounted/subsidized by BYD. https://cleantechnica.com/2024/03/01/byd-dolphin-mini-rolling-in-mexico-cheapest-electric-car-by-far/ https://cleantechnica.com/2024/03/01/byd-dolphin-mini-rollin...
    - slaw 1y ago
      Price war is on everything, ICEs, EVs, phones, TVs,..

ranger_danger 1y ago

Because it would destroy the auto industry overnight.

johnea 1y ago
You say that like its a bad thing...
- dyauspitr 1y ago
  It is. I want American auto manufacturing to continue to be a thing. With this administration most industries will see 4 years of technological and competitive regression though so it’s probably a losing battle.
  - johnea 1y ago
    Please see this reply: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44339924 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44339924
- ranger_danger 1y ago
  Yes I think it is, because over time it becomes too great an amount of leverage that another country can use to hold over your head.
  - johnea 1y ago
    So you don't actually believe in competition?
    - timschmidt 1y ago
      I think most disagreements come down to people wanting similar things at different scales. It sounds like you're thinking of competition at the corporate scale. It sounds like the commenter immediately previous is thinking of competition at the nation state scale. Both (and more) are happening at the same time, and valid to optimize for.
      - johnea 1y ago
        Please see this reply: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44339924 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44339924
        timschmidt 1y ago
        I see what you're talking about, however, still find much to disagree with in that comment. > US auto industry ownership unilaterally sent US auto manufacturing to China! While the US auto industry did move manufacturing out of the US, this statement is factually incorrect in multiple ways. First, the auto manufacturers largely moved their operations to Mexico and Canada, not China. And second, this happened after https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_Free_Trade_Agreement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_Free_Trade_Agre... an international trade agreement negotiated at the federal government level which made doing so possible and profitable. Doubtless industry lobbyists were involved, however the action was not unilateral in any sense. Similarly, federal and international policy is capable of making it economically sensible to bring that manufacturing back onto US shores. > China's already making most of what we consume here, and they're making world leading innovation in the EV market. So why aren't we just importing the EVs from there like we import everything else? You rail against regulatory protectionism for US heavy industry but seem unaware that all nations with heavy industry engage in same. China imposes tariffs on importing US autos, as does most of Europe, Japan, S. Korea, and anywhere else seeking to maintain some form of local heavy manufacturing, which is seen as a national asset, particularly during war time and other emergencies like pandemics. > The answer of course, is nowhere. There is no such thing in modern US big industry capitalism. It's a big f_cking lie! Last I checked, 75% of Teslas components are US made. > The only thing modern US capitalism is focused on innovating is how to f_ck the consumer, the worker, and the vendor, a little more completely, in favor of shareholders. I'm sure we all needed more financialization of everything. This can be fairly directly traced to the Harvard Business School in the '80s. I think there's a legitimate axe to grind with them and vulture capitalists they trained. But it seems you're ready to throw the baby out with the bathwater over it. The US needs manufacturing to continue to prosper. Some amount of protectionism toward manufacturing is practiced worldwide, even by China, and can be acceptable here too. And while it seems you're very worried about addressing climate change, and I am too, I think we can work toward that as a nation without abdicating our agency.
- bsder 1y ago
  BYD wiping out the Big 3 would also wipe out a significant amount of manufacturing that is "auto industry adjacent". How much more industry do you want to see wiped out in the US? We already can't produce paper masks or toilet paper, for example ... I want the Big 3 to die horrible flaming death, but they need to get replaced by something else domestic. Letting anybody (let alone BYD) simply wipe out all our domestic manufacturing capacity is mega-bad.
  - johnea 1y ago
    I want to start by saying: I'm in general agreement with what you say here. Now, the But: But, it's very important to acknowledge who's responsible for the decline in US manufacturing. BYD isn't "wiping out", the US auto industry. China didn't sneak into the US and steal the factories, the government didn't edict that things be made in China, and tree-hugging hippy libtards didn't give everything away to commonism. US auto industry ownership unilaterally sent US auto manufacturing to China! And has thus reaped many many billions in increased profits, over decades, as a result of throwing American workers, American consumers, and the US's strategic competitiveness under the bus, for the purpose of their own personal profit. Now, somehow, it's China's fault! for being the world's preeminent manufacturing center. And now somehow, US taxpayers (that's us, the idiot herd, not ownership) need to make big payments to Make Manufacturing Great Again. This is just another example of the typical policy of socialist welfare for ownership, and neoliberal austerity for the idiot herd. This is like how the taxpayers pay to build a nuclear power plant, then a private utility operates it for decades while money pours out of it, then, when it's time to clean up the super-fund site scale of radioactive pollution, that's again the responsibility of socialism. Why should US auto industry innovate? China's already making most of what we consume here, and they're making world leading innovation in the EV market. So why aren't we just importing the EVs from there like we import everything else? It's not like this is all some big surprise. The problems with continuing to burn petro, the massive simplification of vehicular mechanisms and the improvements in lifespan and reliability resulting from electrification have all been known for decades. Where's all this capitalist competition driving technical innovation? The answer of course, is nowhere. There is no such thing in modern US big industry capitalism. It's a big f_cking lie! The only thing modern US capitalism is focused on innovating is how to f_ck the consumer, the worker, and the vendor, a little more completely, in favor of shareholders. I'm sure we all needed more financialization of everything. I'm not an absolutist. I think capitalism is basically the only system that's ever been in place in human civilization, and the most straightforward way to prosperity is via that system. But (again with the But) it needs to operate more in line with what is preached: competitive markets leading to innovation that benefits everyone, not just shareholders. Another large portion of the blame lies on the uneducated, irrational US consumer population. Denial of the realities of the consequences of continuing to burn petro, denial of the benefits of electrification across the board. While people talk about their need for "pride" and "faith". This sounds like a bunch of emo bullsh1t to me. Where's the objective, rational analysis? It's no wonder the US consumer gets shafted by industry, it's pretty much begged for. So, while you're general assertions are true. The widely ignored realities of how we got into this mess, and who should be making changes to get us out of this mess, are almost never mentioned out load.

omgwtfbyobbq 1y ago

I think it's closer to $16k-$20k without subsidies. https://electrek.co/2024/05/22/byds-10000-seagull-ev-worrying-rivals-hits-new-markets/ https://electrek.co/2024/05/22/byds-10000-seagull-ev-worryin...

cosmic_cheese 1y ago
Still cheap by US standards. Cheap basic cars barely even exist any more.
slaw 1y ago
It is $8k before current 15% subsides. https://electrek.co/2025/04/08/byds-low-cost-seagull-ev-now-starts-under-8000-china/ https://electrek.co/2025/04/08/byds-low-cost-seagull-ev-now-...
- omgwtfbyobbq 1y ago
  That's only in China, presumably at a steep discount because of the EV price war between manufacturers. In Mexico it's called the Dolphin and costs $20k+. I'm sure some of that is tariffs, but I don't think it's an $8k+ vehicle unless it's being discounted/subsidized by BYD. https://cleantechnica.com/2024/03/01/byd-dolphin-mini-rolling-in-mexico-cheapest-electric-car-by-far/ https://cleantechnica.com/2024/03/01/byd-dolphin-mini-rollin...
  - slaw 1y ago
    Price war is on everything, ICEs, EVs, phones, TVs,..