3 ms·

There is plenty of talent out there; companies just aren't willing to pay for it. When it's normal for developers to make $300k+ as bankers, hedge fund manager

There is plenty of talent out there; companies just aren't willing to pay for it. When it's normal for developers to make $300k+ as bankers, hedge fund managers, and corporate attorneys do, then there's a talent shortage.

potatolicious 14y ago
Hedge fund managers routinely generate 8-figures in profits per year for their employers. Likewise, high-power attorneys can bill literally millions per year for their employers. There are members of our industry who do generate that kind of enormous value to their employers - I've met some of them - and they are all being paid in that ball park already (i.e., $300K+). Is there any real reason to believe that you should be paid as much as bankers and lawyers besides some thinly veiled form of contempt we tend to have for those jobs?
- mgkimsal 14y ago
  "Likewise, high-power attorneys can bill literally millions per year for their employers." How are these attorneys charging? Hourly, even $1000/hour would be $2-3million per year billing full time. Are there other sorts of things that are getting charged for (at a profit) beyond time?
  - Evbn 14y ago
    That's millions. Also, contingency fees in cases with cash settlements or judgements.
    - mgkimsal 14y ago
      well, yes, it's millions, but attorneys who bill $1000/hour are pretty (extremely?) rare. Most attorneys I know are $150-$400/hour, which even considering 'full time' billing and top end, is < $1 million. Contingency or percentage of settlements probably represent a larger portion of attorneys who are bringing in 'millions' for an employer.
  - patio11 14y ago
    "Leverage": one rainmaker partner lets you hang 8 associates off of them on a project. The partner may only bill $600 an hour, but the associates bill $300, and they cost less than a third of that. This essentially makes the partner's net economic impact for the firm $2.2k per "hour" or north of $4 to $5 million per year.
- lmm 14y ago
  >Is there any real reason to believe that you should be paid as much as bankers and lawyers besides some thinly veiled form of contempt we tend to have for those jobs? It demonstrates that it's not unreasonable to pay that amount of money to a single individual. I agree that there's no talent shortage. Companies willing to pay $300k+ are having no trouble hiring people who can generate that kind of value. Companies that aren't willing to pay that much are, unsurprisingly, hiring less valuable employees.
- eli_gottlieb 14y ago
  I once read on this very website that start-ups aren't really "fully baked" until they're bringing in at least $200,000 revenue per employee per year. With those kinds of productivity levels for generic start-up quality (ie: good, but not too good) software engineers, I'd say salaries could stand to rise some more.
  - aaronblohowiak 14y ago
    Really? I think it suggests the opposite; the fully loaded employee costs plus management overhead plus opex would make it tricky to generate real profit on 200k/year rev per employee...
    - eli_gottlieb 14y ago
      Given enough management overhead and investment capital to pay off, both can be true ;-). Remember, an employee is focused on how much value/revenue they generate for the company when negotiating salary, which is similar to but not the same as whether the company is profitable at that productivity level. After all, given enough management overhead, operating expenses, and capital debts, any revenue level can be unprofitable!

potatolicious 14y ago

Hedge fund managers routinely generate 8-figures in profits per year for their employers. Likewise, high-power attorneys can bill literally millions per year for their employers. There are members of our industry who do generate that kind of enormous value to their employers - I've met some of them - and they are all being paid in that ball park already (i.e., $300K+). Is there any real reason to believe that you should be paid as much as bankers and lawyers besides some thinly veiled form of contempt we tend to have for those jobs?

mgkimsal 14y ago
"Likewise, high-power attorneys can bill literally millions per year for their employers." How are these attorneys charging? Hourly, even $1000/hour would be $2-3million per year billing full time. Are there other sorts of things that are getting charged for (at a profit) beyond time?
- Evbn 14y ago
  That's millions. Also, contingency fees in cases with cash settlements or judgements.
  - mgkimsal 14y ago
    well, yes, it's millions, but attorneys who bill $1000/hour are pretty (extremely?) rare. Most attorneys I know are $150-$400/hour, which even considering 'full time' billing and top end, is < $1 million. Contingency or percentage of settlements probably represent a larger portion of attorneys who are bringing in 'millions' for an employer.
- patio11 14y ago
  "Leverage": one rainmaker partner lets you hang 8 associates off of them on a project. The partner may only bill $600 an hour, but the associates bill $300, and they cost less than a third of that. This essentially makes the partner's net economic impact for the firm $2.2k per "hour" or north of $4 to $5 million per year.
lmm 14y ago
>Is there any real reason to believe that you should be paid as much as bankers and lawyers besides some thinly veiled form of contempt we tend to have for those jobs? It demonstrates that it's not unreasonable to pay that amount of money to a single individual. I agree that there's no talent shortage. Companies willing to pay $300k+ are having no trouble hiring people who can generate that kind of value. Companies that aren't willing to pay that much are, unsurprisingly, hiring less valuable employees.
eli_gottlieb 14y ago
I once read on this very website that start-ups aren't really "fully baked" until they're bringing in at least $200,000 revenue per employee per year. With those kinds of productivity levels for generic start-up quality (ie: good, but not too good) software engineers, I'd say salaries could stand to rise some more.
- aaronblohowiak 14y ago
  Really? I think it suggests the opposite; the fully loaded employee costs plus management overhead plus opex would make it tricky to generate real profit on 200k/year rev per employee...
  - eli_gottlieb 14y ago
    Given enough management overhead and investment capital to pay off, both can be true ;-). Remember, an employee is focused on how much value/revenue they generate for the company when negotiating salary, which is similar to but not the same as whether the company is profitable at that productivity level. After all, given enough management overhead, operating expenses, and capital debts, any revenue level can be unprofitable!