6 ms·

Career advice, or something like it

101 points by SchwKatze 1y ago

lazyant 1y ago
Meh. Be outwardly positive and follow whatever you want to do but the reality is cynical (or you haven't been around much yet).
wavemode 1y ago
> Every organization and industry has watering holes where the whiners hang out. The cynical. The jaded. I wish. I've worked for startups where I would've killed to have such a space, where people actually felt free to criticize the way things were going. Toxic positivity is a thing too.
- ge96 1y ago
  Blind (a watering hole)? edit: ehh this is external though
  - golergka 1y ago
    Too toxic to take it seriously
    - bravesoul2 1y ago
      TC or gtfo .... As they say
- buggy6257 1y ago
  For me in every startup I’ve worked this ended up just being a self selecting group slack DM where we would mock things. We didn’t hate the places but there’s always stuff to have fun with like that. We would just recognize each other and keep adding people.
  - 0x696C6961 1y ago
    In my experience this is the same group who is actually fixing things.
- only-one1701 1y ago
  Toxic positivity, you mean the entire tech industry since 2013 or so?
- yodsanklai 1y ago
  There's a lot of toxic positivity in my company. Without the whiners, it would feel like a mental asylum. It's great to know that you're not alone. But I agree, constant negativity doesn't help.
nine_zeros 1y ago
There is some truth to avoiding whiney echo chambers. But these watering holes also give insights into the dirty. E.g. Amazon, Meta etc. have terrible work cultures. Their terribleness got exposed via whiney digital watering holes, at scale. This is useful information for anyone considering jobs at these places. Without these insights, you wouldn't know that you are merely being hired to be fired. Avoid whiney watering holes but after collecting required information.
- scarface_74 1y ago
  Every large company sucks. You are always just a number. They serve a purpose though. They have a lot of money and allow you to exchange your labor for more of that money and publicly traded RSUs than enterprise development or government. Every VC backed company sucks even worse, they work you to death, promise you “equity” that will statistically be worthless and they pay less. I’m not negative. I know the deal - I give a company labor and expertise for 40 hours a week and they give me money. It’s a transaction it’s just that simple - I don’t care about “your mission” and they aren’t my “family”. When that transaction of money for labor isn’t agreeable for either party, it’s time to move on like I’ve done 9x in my career.
  - whatshisface 1y ago
    That's one third true. The other two thirds are work experience and networking, which you can't do at a job that's a dead end with a good pay check.
  - stackskipton 1y ago
    You had a pretty good career if you have gotten RSUs at your jobs, most large companies outside FAANG and types don't give any stock options outside some pitiful purchase plan.
    - scarface_74 1y ago
      Just 3.5 years out of close to 30. I would rather get a daily anal probe with a cactus than ever go back to BigTech. It served its purpose.
temp0826 1y ago
I think these watering holes are just called "the IT department". The toxic BOFH vibe should've never caught on. </whiny rant>
volkk 1y ago
learned this the hard way. got stuck with people in a big company that i thought were "cool" but literally hated tech (this included engineers in the group) and the company which they worked for. Constant complaints, everything bad, etc. I joined a much better company after and made friends with really curious/smart people--my own level of care, curiosity and side projects catapulted. I am a completely different person. Complaining is fun, and super fucking easy. Actually doing something about it is a different beast and I want to be friends with the people that understand the world isn't perfect and want to actively make it better by doing rather than incessantly whining and throwing their hands up in the air.
OutOfHere 1y ago
The article is bad advice because nothing improves without criticism. The real problem with criticism is that management doesn't like bad news to be advertised, so they punish those who speak out. As such, it's not wise in the short term to illuminate bad truths if one seeks job security. If one seeks firm security, however, then honestly addressing all criticisms is the way to get there. Another observation about criticism is that it can often be falsely mistaken for cynicism.
- criddell 1y ago
  Criticism can be great. Cynicism is usually pretty toxic.
  - latentsea 1y ago
    I'm not so sure about that...
- BeetleB 1y ago
  > The article is bad advice because nothing improves without criticism. You're referring to the article that is saying complaining can be helpful? I'm 100% with the article, BTW. My first job was in a crappy, dysfunctional team (and department, and org). After 4 years, I got out and changed careers. Every so often, I have lunch with those who stayed. They whine just like they did over a decade ago. And literally nothing has changed. And almost every time I point out "You want to improve your situation? You need to leave." I'd go the extra mile and say that the reason such watering holes exist is because they are in an environment where criticism usually changes nothing. So the engineers need to find a place to vent. The places I've worked where management is receptive to negative feedback didn't have these negative watering holes.
catchcatchcatch 1y ago
[dead]
kixiQu 1y ago
Generally it behooves one to take Marc Brooker seriously. That said, without invoking my legally protected right to discuss workplace conditions, I think it's fair to say this particular sentiment in this particular moment rings a little hollow.
bigcat12345678 1y ago
I think the article is exactly opposite in what people should be doing. My advice: avoid positive echo chamber, unless they reveal genuine behind-scene facts. Negativity is never a problem, people routinely sacrifice a lot for meaningful objective and reasonable leaders. When they turn negative, it's primarily there isn't a positive feedback loop in the environment. But what's really happening now is that people are instinctively sugar-coating their meaningless job to lure outsiders for their own ego or whatever.
atomicnumber3 1y ago
I hate whining and complaining. But I still do it a lot. Why? Because I care. Let me tell you a story. There was once a company. Things were great. Then ownership changed and things were not. People complained - and rightfully so. But nothing was done about it. So the whiners left. Then it was peaceful again - the only people left were complacent. Then the company died because the problems never got fixed and the owner couldn't figure it out once all the complainers - the people who knew what it should be like - left. So, sure, some people are just natural born whiners who will never be happy. But some people just have good taste or instincts and can tell when stuff is broken. I'd say ignore them at your own risk. And on the other side of the table - if shit is broken and you don't like it - is OP suggestion we just quit? Well, what about the poor sod who takes our seat next? And what about the next place we join - a seat likely vacated by someone who themselves had had enough? It's the tragedy of the commons. If we all just keep skipping out after 1-3 year stints, just to get a fresh set of problems, well, everywhere is just going to suck. I really think this is the most likely reason software engineers will unionize - this realizing that 99% of companies are helmed by incompetent lottery winners and have been coasting on that initial capital/revenue infusion ever since.
- motorest 1y ago
  > So, sure, some people are just natural born whiners who will never be happy. But some people just have good taste or instincts and can tell when stuff is broken. I'd say ignore them at your own risk. Here's some food for thought: whiner communities create a conservative feedback loop that preserves existing problems and singles out for attack those who try to do anything about them. The primary output from these communities is creating a chilling effect that dissuades everyone from acting upon a problem, as doing anything about anything singles you out for attack and criticism. If you fix a problem, people stop whining. There are no praises, victory laps, or any recognition though. There is only bitching about issues. That's the problem with whiners. It's a culture based on not fixing problems and attacking those who dare do anything about anything. That's why you must stay away from whiners and complainers. They don't build up, they thrive in tearing others down.
  - Cypher 1y ago
mdavid626 1y ago
It’s 2025. Some websites are still unreadable on mobile. Impossible to even zoom the text.
- QuantumNoodle 1y ago
  Can't relate. Firefox on android I can double tap the paragraph and it auto-fits the column. There is also "Reading view" which renders just the reading content, and is customizable. https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/firefox-reader-view-clutter-free-web-pages https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/firefox-reader-view-clu...
  - mdavid626 1y ago
    Chrome/Safari on iOS doesn’t work. No reading mode, not able to zoom either or change font size to be big enough.

101 points by SchwKatze 1y ago

Meh. Be outwardly positive and follow whatever you want to do but the reality is cynical (or you haven't been around much yet).

wavemode 1y ago

> Every organization and industry has watering holes where the whiners hang out. The cynical. The jaded. I wish. I've worked for startups where I would've killed to have such a space, where people actually felt free to criticize the way things were going. Toxic positivity is a thing too.

ge96 1y ago
Blind (a watering hole)? edit: ehh this is external though
- golergka 1y ago
  Too toxic to take it seriously
  - bravesoul2 1y ago
    TC or gtfo .... As they say
buggy6257 1y ago
For me in every startup I’ve worked this ended up just being a self selecting group slack DM where we would mock things. We didn’t hate the places but there’s always stuff to have fun with like that. We would just recognize each other and keep adding people.
- 0x696C6961 1y ago
  In my experience this is the same group who is actually fixing things.
only-one1701 1y ago
Toxic positivity, you mean the entire tech industry since 2013 or so?
yodsanklai 1y ago
There's a lot of toxic positivity in my company. Without the whiners, it would feel like a mental asylum. It's great to know that you're not alone. But I agree, constant negativity doesn't help.

nine_zeros 1y ago

There is some truth to avoiding whiney echo chambers. But these watering holes also give insights into the dirty. E.g. Amazon, Meta etc. have terrible work cultures. Their terribleness got exposed via whiney digital watering holes, at scale. This is useful information for anyone considering jobs at these places. Without these insights, you wouldn't know that you are merely being hired to be fired. Avoid whiney watering holes but after collecting required information.

scarface_74 1y ago
Every large company sucks. You are always just a number. They serve a purpose though. They have a lot of money and allow you to exchange your labor for more of that money and publicly traded RSUs than enterprise development or government. Every VC backed company sucks even worse, they work you to death, promise you “equity” that will statistically be worthless and they pay less. I’m not negative. I know the deal - I give a company labor and expertise for 40 hours a week and they give me money. It’s a transaction it’s just that simple - I don’t care about “your mission” and they aren’t my “family”. When that transaction of money for labor isn’t agreeable for either party, it’s time to move on like I’ve done 9x in my career.
- whatshisface 1y ago
  That's one third true. The other two thirds are work experience and networking, which you can't do at a job that's a dead end with a good pay check.
- stackskipton 1y ago
  You had a pretty good career if you have gotten RSUs at your jobs, most large companies outside FAANG and types don't give any stock options outside some pitiful purchase plan.
  - scarface_74 1y ago
    Just 3.5 years out of close to 30. I would rather get a daily anal probe with a cactus than ever go back to BigTech. It served its purpose.

temp0826 1y ago

I think these watering holes are just called "the IT department". The toxic BOFH vibe should've never caught on. </whiny rant>

volkk 1y ago

learned this the hard way. got stuck with people in a big company that i thought were "cool" but literally hated tech (this included engineers in the group) and the company which they worked for. Constant complaints, everything bad, etc. I joined a much better company after and made friends with really curious/smart people--my own level of care, curiosity and side projects catapulted. I am a completely different person. Complaining is fun, and super fucking easy. Actually doing something about it is a different beast and I want to be friends with the people that understand the world isn't perfect and want to actively make it better by doing rather than incessantly whining and throwing their hands up in the air.

OutOfHere 1y ago

The article is bad advice because nothing improves without criticism. The real problem with criticism is that management doesn't like bad news to be advertised, so they punish those who speak out. As such, it's not wise in the short term to illuminate bad truths if one seeks job security. If one seeks firm security, however, then honestly addressing all criticisms is the way to get there. Another observation about criticism is that it can often be falsely mistaken for cynicism.

criddell 1y ago
Criticism can be great. Cynicism is usually pretty toxic.
- latentsea 1y ago
  I'm not so sure about that...
BeetleB 1y ago
> The article is bad advice because nothing improves without criticism. You're referring to the article that is saying complaining can be helpful? I'm 100% with the article, BTW. My first job was in a crappy, dysfunctional team (and department, and org). After 4 years, I got out and changed careers. Every so often, I have lunch with those who stayed. They whine just like they did over a decade ago. And literally nothing has changed. And almost every time I point out "You want to improve your situation? You need to leave." I'd go the extra mile and say that the reason such watering holes exist is because they are in an environment where criticism usually changes nothing. So the engineers need to find a place to vent. The places I've worked where management is receptive to negative feedback didn't have these negative watering holes.

catchcatchcatch 1y ago

[dead]

kixiQu 1y ago

Generally it behooves one to take Marc Brooker seriously. That said, without invoking my legally protected right to discuss workplace conditions, I think it's fair to say this particular sentiment in this particular moment rings a little hollow.

bigcat12345678 1y ago

I think the article is exactly opposite in what people should be doing. My advice: avoid positive echo chamber, unless they reveal genuine behind-scene facts. Negativity is never a problem, people routinely sacrifice a lot for meaningful objective and reasonable leaders. When they turn negative, it's primarily there isn't a positive feedback loop in the environment. But what's really happening now is that people are instinctively sugar-coating their meaningless job to lure outsiders for their own ego or whatever.

atomicnumber3 1y ago

I hate whining and complaining. But I still do it a lot. Why? Because I care. Let me tell you a story. There was once a company. Things were great. Then ownership changed and things were not. People complained - and rightfully so. But nothing was done about it. So the whiners left. Then it was peaceful again - the only people left were complacent. Then the company died because the problems never got fixed and the owner couldn't figure it out once all the complainers - the people who knew what it should be like - left. So, sure, some people are just natural born whiners who will never be happy. But some people just have good taste or instincts and can tell when stuff is broken. I'd say ignore them at your own risk. And on the other side of the table - if shit is broken and you don't like it - is OP suggestion we just quit? Well, what about the poor sod who takes our seat next? And what about the next place we join - a seat likely vacated by someone who themselves had had enough? It's the tragedy of the commons. If we all just keep skipping out after 1-3 year stints, just to get a fresh set of problems, well, everywhere is just going to suck. I really think this is the most likely reason software engineers will unionize - this realizing that 99% of companies are helmed by incompetent lottery winners and have been coasting on that initial capital/revenue infusion ever since.

motorest 1y ago
> So, sure, some people are just natural born whiners who will never be happy. But some people just have good taste or instincts and can tell when stuff is broken. I'd say ignore them at your own risk. Here's some food for thought: whiner communities create a conservative feedback loop that preserves existing problems and singles out for attack those who try to do anything about them. The primary output from these communities is creating a chilling effect that dissuades everyone from acting upon a problem, as doing anything about anything singles you out for attack and criticism. If you fix a problem, people stop whining. There are no praises, victory laps, or any recognition though. There is only bitching about issues. That's the problem with whiners. It's a culture based on not fixing problems and attacking those who dare do anything about anything. That's why you must stay away from whiners and complainers. They don't build up, they thrive in tearing others down.
- Cypher 1y ago

mdavid626 1y ago

It’s 2025. Some websites are still unreadable on mobile. Impossible to even zoom the text.

QuantumNoodle 1y ago
Can't relate. Firefox on android I can double tap the paragraph and it auto-fits the column. There is also "Reading view" which renders just the reading content, and is customizable. https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/firefox-reader-view-clutter-free-web-pages https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/firefox-reader-view-clu...
- mdavid626 1y ago
  Chrome/Safari on iOS doesn’t work. No reading mode, not able to zoom either or change font size to be big enough.