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Yes all 3. It has been weird trying to position/brand this as we started out just going for full-stack Elixir/Phoenix and it became very clear this is already m

Yes all 3. It has been weird trying to position/brand this as we started out just going for full-stack Elixir/Phoenix and it became very clear this is already much bigger than a single stack. That said, we wanted to nail a single stack super well to start and the agent is tailored for vibe'd apps atm. I want to introduce a pair mode next for more leveled assistance without having to nag it. You could absolutely treat phoenix.new as your full dev IDE environment, but I think about it less an IDE, and more a remote runtime where agents get work done that you pop into as needed. Or another way to think about it, the agent doesn't care or need the vscode IDE or xterm. They are purely conveniences for us meaty humans. For me, something like this is the future of programming. Agents fiddling away and we pop in to see what's going on or work on things they aren't well suited for. Tidewave is focused on improving your local dev experience while we sit on the infra/remote agent/codex/devin/jules side of the fence. Tidewave also has a MCP server which Phoenix.new could integrate with that runs inside your app itself.

tills13 1y ago
> For me, something like this is the future of programming. Agents fiddling away and we pop in to see what's going on or work on things they aren't well suited for. Honestly, this is depressing. Pop in from what? Our factory jobs?
- abrookewood 1y ago
  Hopefully, from sitting by the pool drinking margaritas ... but I doubt we will get to keep our new found freedom.
  - dkersten 1y ago
    Never going to happen. More efficiency and automation won’t lead to more free time and money for the masses, it will lead to fewer people employed, and those that are will be working the same hours for the same money but outputting more. Only the rich people will benefit. In the long term. In the short term, we get to do the same work but faster.
    - freedomben 1y ago
      Indeed, why would an employer pay us a high salary to sit by the pool? The benefits will go to the founders/investors and the customers. They'll benefit greatly from the increased output and lower costs, but the middlemen (SWEs) will be cut out. That's a great thing if you're a founder/investor or a customer, but not if you're the middleman. New opportunities may come around, but I don't think that's inevitable. It remains to be seen.
      - neuderrek 1y ago
        It will not be easier for founders/investor either. If couple prompts is all it takes to build your product, your potential customers will write those prompts themselves instead of buying your product.
        dkersten 1y ago
        True. But someone at the top will benefit. Either it’s the companies that can produce more of something that the end user can’t easily replicate themselves for whatever reason, or at least the LLM providers. What I mean is, it will create value. Just not for the masses. And maybe not for the small businesses. If anything, it will let the big corporations do even more: a few big players doing everything and no little players at all.
        elbear 1y ago
        Some people prefer to pay for others to handle things and take responsibility.
        freedomben 1y ago
        Hot damn, that's a great point! Although I fully expect the models at some point to say stuff like, "I'm sorry I can't generate a <whatever> because that would violate Apple's/Google's/Whatever IP" and then have them enforce it with the power of government (copyright/patent/regulation/etc). There's also lots of industries where compliance requirements create a moat that might be difficult to get past, though that's probably just a short/medium-term problem.
- pmarreck 1y ago
  > Pop in from what? Our factory jobs? Oh, you sweet summer child. ;) You will pop in from the other 9 projects you are currently popping in on, of course! While running 10 agents at once!
  - tills13 1y ago
    And from which exactly am I earning an income to feed myself? Who's buying what I'm making? Where are they getting their money? We're building a serfdom again.
    - pmarreck 1y ago
      LOL, what? Take on 10 projects at once, and start making way more money... if you're not an external-locus-of-control moron at least You've literally been given an excavator when you currently have a shovel, and you're worried that other excavators will dig you out of a job. That is a literal analogy to your POV, here
- scottrblock 1y ago
  How about our software engineering jobs, which will now entail managing a team of agents?
  - tills13 1y ago
    wow that sounds fun /s
    - colecut 1y ago
      Sounds preferable to managing people tbh
- brainless 1y ago
  I understand that we are slowly taking away our own jobs but I do not find it depressing. I do find it concerning since most people do not talk about this openly. We are not sure how we are restructure so many jobs. If we cannot find jobs, what is the financial future for a large number of people across the world. This needs more thinking, honest acceptance of the situation. It will happen, we should take a positive approach to finding a new future.
  - seanhandley 1y ago
    Read up on the Jevons Paradox
    - freedomben 1y ago
      > In economics, the Jevons paradox (/ˈdʒɛvənz/; sometimes Jevons effect) occurs when technological advancements make a resource more efficient to use (thereby reducing the amount needed for a single application); however, as the cost of using the resource drops, if the price is highly elastic, this results in overall demand increasing, causing total resource consumption to rise. Governments have typically expected efficiency gains to lower resource consumption, rather than anticipating possible increases due to the Jevons paradox.[1] I do think there will be some Jevons effect going on with this, but I think it's important to recognize that software development as a resource is different than something like coal. For example, if the average iPhone-only teenager can now suddenly start cranking out apps, that may ultimately increase demand for apps and there may be more code than ever getting "written," but there won't necesarily be a need for your CS-grad software engineer anymore, so we could still be fucked. Why would you pay a high salary for a SWE when your business teams can just generate whatever app they need without having to know anything about how it actually works? I think the arguments about "AI isn't good enough to replace senior engineers" will hold true for a few years, but not much beyond that. Jevon's Paradox will probably hold true for software as a resource, but not for SWEs as a resource. In the coal scenario, imagine that coal gets super cheap to procure because we invent robots that can do it from alpha to omega. Coal demand may go up, but the job for the coal miner is toast, and unless that coal miner has ownership stake, they will be out on their ass. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox

tills13 1y ago

> For me, something like this is the future of programming. Agents fiddling away and we pop in to see what's going on or work on things they aren't well suited for. Honestly, this is depressing. Pop in from what? Our factory jobs?

abrookewood 1y ago
Hopefully, from sitting by the pool drinking margaritas ... but I doubt we will get to keep our new found freedom.
- dkersten 1y ago
  Never going to happen. More efficiency and automation won’t lead to more free time and money for the masses, it will lead to fewer people employed, and those that are will be working the same hours for the same money but outputting more. Only the rich people will benefit. In the long term. In the short term, we get to do the same work but faster.
  - freedomben 1y ago
    Indeed, why would an employer pay us a high salary to sit by the pool? The benefits will go to the founders/investors and the customers. They'll benefit greatly from the increased output and lower costs, but the middlemen (SWEs) will be cut out. That's a great thing if you're a founder/investor or a customer, but not if you're the middleman. New opportunities may come around, but I don't think that's inevitable. It remains to be seen.
    - neuderrek 1y ago
      It will not be easier for founders/investor either. If couple prompts is all it takes to build your product, your potential customers will write those prompts themselves instead of buying your product.
      - dkersten 1y ago
        True. But someone at the top will benefit. Either it’s the companies that can produce more of something that the end user can’t easily replicate themselves for whatever reason, or at least the LLM providers. What I mean is, it will create value. Just not for the masses. And maybe not for the small businesses. If anything, it will let the big corporations do even more: a few big players doing everything and no little players at all.
      - elbear 1y ago
        Some people prefer to pay for others to handle things and take responsibility.
      - freedomben 1y ago
        Hot damn, that's a great point! Although I fully expect the models at some point to say stuff like, "I'm sorry I can't generate a <whatever> because that would violate Apple's/Google's/Whatever IP" and then have them enforce it with the power of government (copyright/patent/regulation/etc). There's also lots of industries where compliance requirements create a moat that might be difficult to get past, though that's probably just a short/medium-term problem.
pmarreck 1y ago
> Pop in from what? Our factory jobs? Oh, you sweet summer child. ;) You will pop in from the other 9 projects you are currently popping in on, of course! While running 10 agents at once!
- tills13 1y ago
  And from which exactly am I earning an income to feed myself? Who's buying what I'm making? Where are they getting their money? We're building a serfdom again.
  - pmarreck 1y ago
    LOL, what? Take on 10 projects at once, and start making way more money... if you're not an external-locus-of-control moron at least You've literally been given an excavator when you currently have a shovel, and you're worried that other excavators will dig you out of a job. That is a literal analogy to your POV, here
scottrblock 1y ago
How about our software engineering jobs, which will now entail managing a team of agents?
- tills13 1y ago
  wow that sounds fun /s
  - colecut 1y ago
    Sounds preferable to managing people tbh
brainless 1y ago
I understand that we are slowly taking away our own jobs but I do not find it depressing. I do find it concerning since most people do not talk about this openly. We are not sure how we are restructure so many jobs. If we cannot find jobs, what is the financial future for a large number of people across the world. This needs more thinking, honest acceptance of the situation. It will happen, we should take a positive approach to finding a new future.
- seanhandley 1y ago
  Read up on the Jevons Paradox
  - freedomben 1y ago
    > In economics, the Jevons paradox (/ˈdʒɛvənz/; sometimes Jevons effect) occurs when technological advancements make a resource more efficient to use (thereby reducing the amount needed for a single application); however, as the cost of using the resource drops, if the price is highly elastic, this results in overall demand increasing, causing total resource consumption to rise. Governments have typically expected efficiency gains to lower resource consumption, rather than anticipating possible increases due to the Jevons paradox.[1] I do think there will be some Jevons effect going on with this, but I think it's important to recognize that software development as a resource is different than something like coal. For example, if the average iPhone-only teenager can now suddenly start cranking out apps, that may ultimately increase demand for apps and there may be more code than ever getting "written," but there won't necesarily be a need for your CS-grad software engineer anymore, so we could still be fucked. Why would you pay a high salary for a SWE when your business teams can just generate whatever app they need without having to know anything about how it actually works? I think the arguments about "AI isn't good enough to replace senior engineers" will hold true for a few years, but not much beyond that. Jevon's Paradox will probably hold true for software as a resource, but not for SWEs as a resource. In the coal scenario, imagine that coal gets super cheap to procure because we invent robots that can do it from alpha to omega. Coal demand may go up, but the job for the coal miner is toast, and unless that coal miner has ownership stake, they will be out on their ass. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox