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Can you elaborate more on discussions about XLibre being banned on here? Are accounts that mention it getting banned? Is there just mass downvoting by partisans

Can you elaborate more on discussions about XLibre being banned on here? Are accounts that mention it getting banned? Is there just mass downvoting by partisans with some kind of agenda? I get that X11 has security issues, but NVIDIA drivers and Wayland still seem to have no support now and no support planned for the future, so Wayland is a non-negotiable non-option for many (most?) Linux desktop users, including myself. That said, with the custodian of X11 refusing to merge 1000+ patches including various bug fixes and security fixes, I'm excited for the prospect of XLibre - this is exactly what Open Source, as an idea, was invented to facilitate - user choice.

mkesper 1y ago
Wayland supports nvidia cards, that they are not supported is FUD at this point in time.
- colanderman 1y ago
  Really? As of a couple months ago I nearly totally hosed my Debian installation trying to get Wayland GDM working under Nvidia.
  - abhinavk 1y ago
    I haven't tried Debian but the latest releases of Ubuntu, Fedora as well as any rolling release distro work fine.
  - lotharcable 1y ago
    Nvidia under Linux has had a long and hard history. For most purposes, including gaming, it is best to avoid Nvidia hardware. Using Intel for laptops and AMD for dedicated GPUs is kinda the best general approach if you are planning on using Linux. Of course if you have a need for CUDA then Nvidia is the only game in town, but that is a different issue then Wayland support. For a while Nvidia was fighting the Xorg/Wayland devs over GBM vs EGLStreams which has delayed Wayland support. This has to do with the API extensions that allowed Wayland to manage application output buffers. Gnome was the only Wayland environment to try to support EGLStreams for Nvidia, but it really didn't do them any good. A while ago Nvidia eventually switched over to GBM and EGLStreams is dead, which helped out a lot of people running non-Gnome Wayland desktops. But there are lots of problems with Nvidia drivers besides that right now. The reality is that Nvidia doesn't care about consumer Linux desktop. Their primary focus is on Enterprise users in terms of people needing graphically accelerated desktops. So right now if you are running Linux on your personal workstations/desktops/laptops you are essentially beta testers for whenever Enterprise Linux distros make the switch to Wayland.
    - justin66 1y ago
      > The reality is that Nvidia doesn't care about consumer Linux desktop. Their primary focus is on Enterprise users in terms of people needing graphically accelerated desktops. What does this actually mean in terms of technology? What is Nvidia providing that works for RHEL but doesn't work for Fedora, or whatever?
  - demosthanos 1y ago
    I've been totally breaking Linux installs trying to get Nvidia to work for 15 years now, and that's on X11. On the other hand I recently did the first OS upgrade that I've ever done successfully without breaking Nvidia and that was running Wayland. Nvidia is just really really bad on Linux in general, so it's always a coin toss if you'll be able to boot your system after messing with their drivers, regardless of display server.
- anonym29 1y ago
  I have an RTX 4060 Ti with latest drivers installed, KDE on Debian. On the login screen, I can select X11 or Wayland. Selecting X11 lets me log in fine, selecting Wayland and logging in results in a black screen and the only thing I can do to get any video out at all is switching to another TTY.
  - colanderman 1y ago
    Same exact experience here. Nearly borked my entire installation trying to get that to work.
  - opticfluorine 1y ago
    I have an RTX 4060 with latest drivers, KDE, and Arch. Wayland works perfectly for me. Maybe Debian has some outdated packages that haven't caught up yet?
    - anonym29 1y ago
      "Works on my machine, just use my OS" isn't a solution to my problem, whereas X11 is a solution to my problem.
      - const_cast 1y ago
        You're literally running Debian. It's Debian. It's old, it's outdated, yes that's your problem! Listen, I run Debian too. But I'm not going to get online and complain out X Y Z not working when I'm running a package from 3 years ago. Please, be for real.
        anonym29 1y ago
        >It's old, it's outdated, yes that's your problem! No, it's stable, it's reliable, it's the solution to all of the problems I had on Arch, Fedora, and other rolling releases. And again, Nvidia drivers work perfectly right out of the box on X11. Wayland? That's a new problem.
- Spivak 1y ago
  I have an Nvidia card with the default Fedora install and it works on Wayland without having to do anything.
bmacho 1y ago
> Can you elaborate more on discussions about XLibre being banned on here? Are accounts that mention it getting banned? Is there just mass downvoting by partisans with some kind of agenda? YC moderators are hiding the articles from the front page. x11libre got 2 active discussions here according to https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=x11libre&sort=byPopularity&type=story https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que... and both got removed from the front page - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44302650 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44302650 -- 2 days ago | 80 points | 197 comments -- Long live Xorg, I mean Xlibre - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44199502 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44199502 -- 14 days ago | 116 points | 180 comments -- The X.Org Server just got forked (announcing XLibre)
- zamadatix 1y ago
  A highly controversial guy making controversial patches to a somewhat heated topic around these parts is going to get flagged by users too, how are you so certain it's the admins doing the hiding? Even when not flagged the score to comment ratios will drag those off the front page quickly.
- vidarh 1y ago
  Both threads devolved into politics, and that's likely the reasons why they got flagged. There's no evidence these were hidden by moderators, as opposed to because regular users flagged threads. Having seen some of your comments on one of those threads, there's a decent chance your comments contributed to getting those posts flagged.
- demosthanos 1y ago
  The [flagged] indicator on a submission usually indicates user flagging. Moderators and algorithms just quietly downweight submissions without any visible indicator. So this isn't an HN moderator position, the question to resolve is why users would flag it. In this case, I'd have flagged them too if I saw them. The "long live" post is an aggressive tirade that reflects poorly on the author and led to a poor-quality discussion. The second is a link to a git commit history, which is weird in its own right and provides no explanation, and the context provided in the comments shows that a generally dislikable figure with extreme political views is now leading a fork of X11 that has yet to prove itself viable. So I'd probably have flagged that one too as pointless drama until proven otherwise.
vbezhenar 1y ago
[flagged]
ThrowOregonAway 1y ago
[flagged]
- wizzwizz4 1y ago
  Wayland is a ridiculously simple protocol: I could run it on pencil and paper. It doesn't require anything I'd describe as a "hardware backdoor". What are you on about?

mkesper 1y ago

Wayland supports nvidia cards, that they are not supported is FUD at this point in time.

colanderman 1y ago
Really? As of a couple months ago I nearly totally hosed my Debian installation trying to get Wayland GDM working under Nvidia.
- abhinavk 1y ago
  I haven't tried Debian but the latest releases of Ubuntu, Fedora as well as any rolling release distro work fine.
- lotharcable 1y ago
  Nvidia under Linux has had a long and hard history. For most purposes, including gaming, it is best to avoid Nvidia hardware. Using Intel for laptops and AMD for dedicated GPUs is kinda the best general approach if you are planning on using Linux. Of course if you have a need for CUDA then Nvidia is the only game in town, but that is a different issue then Wayland support. For a while Nvidia was fighting the Xorg/Wayland devs over GBM vs EGLStreams which has delayed Wayland support. This has to do with the API extensions that allowed Wayland to manage application output buffers. Gnome was the only Wayland environment to try to support EGLStreams for Nvidia, but it really didn't do them any good. A while ago Nvidia eventually switched over to GBM and EGLStreams is dead, which helped out a lot of people running non-Gnome Wayland desktops. But there are lots of problems with Nvidia drivers besides that right now. The reality is that Nvidia doesn't care about consumer Linux desktop. Their primary focus is on Enterprise users in terms of people needing graphically accelerated desktops. So right now if you are running Linux on your personal workstations/desktops/laptops you are essentially beta testers for whenever Enterprise Linux distros make the switch to Wayland.
  - justin66 1y ago
    > The reality is that Nvidia doesn't care about consumer Linux desktop. Their primary focus is on Enterprise users in terms of people needing graphically accelerated desktops. What does this actually mean in terms of technology? What is Nvidia providing that works for RHEL but doesn't work for Fedora, or whatever?
- demosthanos 1y ago
  I've been totally breaking Linux installs trying to get Nvidia to work for 15 years now, and that's on X11. On the other hand I recently did the first OS upgrade that I've ever done successfully without breaking Nvidia and that was running Wayland. Nvidia is just really really bad on Linux in general, so it's always a coin toss if you'll be able to boot your system after messing with their drivers, regardless of display server.
anonym29 1y ago
I have an RTX 4060 Ti with latest drivers installed, KDE on Debian. On the login screen, I can select X11 or Wayland. Selecting X11 lets me log in fine, selecting Wayland and logging in results in a black screen and the only thing I can do to get any video out at all is switching to another TTY.
- colanderman 1y ago
  Same exact experience here. Nearly borked my entire installation trying to get that to work.
- opticfluorine 1y ago
  I have an RTX 4060 with latest drivers, KDE, and Arch. Wayland works perfectly for me. Maybe Debian has some outdated packages that haven't caught up yet?
  - anonym29 1y ago
    "Works on my machine, just use my OS" isn't a solution to my problem, whereas X11 is a solution to my problem.
    - const_cast 1y ago
      You're literally running Debian. It's Debian. It's old, it's outdated, yes that's your problem! Listen, I run Debian too. But I'm not going to get online and complain out X Y Z not working when I'm running a package from 3 years ago. Please, be for real.
      - anonym29 1y ago
        >It's old, it's outdated, yes that's your problem! No, it's stable, it's reliable, it's the solution to all of the problems I had on Arch, Fedora, and other rolling releases. And again, Nvidia drivers work perfectly right out of the box on X11. Wayland? That's a new problem.
Spivak 1y ago
I have an Nvidia card with the default Fedora install and it works on Wayland without having to do anything.

bmacho 1y ago

> Can you elaborate more on discussions about XLibre being banned on here? Are accounts that mention it getting banned? Is there just mass downvoting by partisans with some kind of agenda? YC moderators are hiding the articles from the front page. x11libre got 2 active discussions here according to https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=x11libre&sort=byPopularity&type=story https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que... and both got removed from the front page - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44302650 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44302650 -- 2 days ago | 80 points | 197 comments -- Long live Xorg, I mean Xlibre - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44199502 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44199502 -- 14 days ago | 116 points | 180 comments -- The X.Org Server just got forked (announcing XLibre)

zamadatix 1y ago
A highly controversial guy making controversial patches to a somewhat heated topic around these parts is going to get flagged by users too, how are you so certain it's the admins doing the hiding? Even when not flagged the score to comment ratios will drag those off the front page quickly.
vidarh 1y ago
Both threads devolved into politics, and that's likely the reasons why they got flagged. There's no evidence these were hidden by moderators, as opposed to because regular users flagged threads. Having seen some of your comments on one of those threads, there's a decent chance your comments contributed to getting those posts flagged.
demosthanos 1y ago
The [flagged] indicator on a submission usually indicates user flagging. Moderators and algorithms just quietly downweight submissions without any visible indicator. So this isn't an HN moderator position, the question to resolve is why users would flag it. In this case, I'd have flagged them too if I saw them. The "long live" post is an aggressive tirade that reflects poorly on the author and led to a poor-quality discussion. The second is a link to a git commit history, which is weird in its own right and provides no explanation, and the context provided in the comments shows that a generally dislikable figure with extreme political views is now leading a fork of X11 that has yet to prove itself viable. So I'd probably have flagged that one too as pointless drama until proven otherwise.

vbezhenar 1y ago

[flagged]

ThrowOregonAway 1y ago

[flagged]

wizzwizz4 1y ago
Wayland is a ridiculously simple protocol: I could run it on pencil and paper. It doesn't require anything I'd describe as a "hardware backdoor". What are you on about?