3 ms·

XLibre talk is banned here, we DO have a choice.

by ThrowOregonAway 1y ago

bmacho 1y ago
[flagged]
- tom_ 1y ago
  I figured enough people just flag the submission, because they don't want to put up with the Xlibre guy's specific category of shit, or that of his inevitable hangers-on. Are they right? Are they wrong? Well, it's their decision. I've seen enough stuff I've flagged myself disappear quickly, and then reappear later (with more surprisingly reasonable discussion than I at least had predicted), to suggest that the admins will retrieve any popular discussion that was unreasonably assigned to the naughty step. (Of course, admin intervention in the other direction is always a possibility, and that's fair enough too. If you want unmoderated discussion, you'll need to go somewhere else.)
  - bmacho 1y ago
    > I've seen enough stuff I've flagged disappear quickly, and then reappear later (with surprisingly reasonable discussion), to suggest that the admins will retrieve any popular discussion that was unreasonably assigned to the naughty step. That's the whole point. The default for everything that has at least a small hater base is to disappear, until for manual reenabling by moderators. This is not community moderation, it is de-facto pre-moderation. Which, in this case has a strong bias against xlibre despite it having literally nothing wrong with it (like the other stuff reappearing). It's gross censure (for the sake of a gross, user hostile corporate), and the moderators should be called out for it.
    - vidarh 1y ago
      While I find the moderation on HN a bit heavyhanded at times: When the originator of the XLibre fork decided to push a heavily partisan political stance right there in the README, he made a choice that ensured that the project will be controversial. He can fix that very easily if he wants to. As someone who detest Wayland, I would very much like to see Xlibre be sucessful, but I'm not surprised a lot of people will reflexively downvote or flag stuff about it given the circumstances. (EDIT: Having seen some of the other stuff he's said, I'm now not convinced he can do anything to salvage this as long as he's the figure-head for this new project)
      - bmacho 1y ago
        I don't think it is a good reason or even an acceptable reason to actively censor the news about the project, and prevent people to communicate about it. While XLibre is unfortunately political at the moment, this is not an excuse for what the HN staff is doing.
        vidarh 1y ago
        You keep assuming that it's HN staff, but HN articles very often get flagged by regular users when they get political, and having seen some of the comments on one of the other articles, including some of yours, I'm not the slightest bit surprised they got flagged. If people want Xlibre to have a shot at HN at all, those are things to fix. Making unsubstantiated claims about HN staff is not going to change anything - if anything that too is likely to attract flagging.
        bmacho 1y ago
        No, a project or a project leader having haters (just this thread there are 3 distinct people jumping in with various insults or fake news on normal questions) should not be enough for something to get censored. What kind of 'Why are you hitting yourself?' logic is that? > You keep assuming that it's HN staff, It's HN staff, and I've already explained it. Read back.
        tom_ 1y ago
        It's quite possible that there are just people flagging things without commenting. I do this all the time if the discussion looks particularly stupid, unproductive, bad-tempered, pointless, and so on - or some combination thereof. (I haven't done it in this case, but only because I was silly enough to comment. This thread has been quite reasonably flagged, I'd say.) This is part of the how this particular site works. If you don't like it, that's fine, but you will have to go elsewhere to avoid it. And even if it is indeed the admins working away behind the scenes, a committee of shadowy puppetmasters directing their every move, suppression of X11 forks just one probing toothed tendril of this multi-armed octopus - well, this place was never a democracy anyway.
Ezhik 1y ago
What's XLibre? Are they taking Linux desktop accessibility more seriously?
- resoluteteeth 1y ago
  It's a fork of x.org that's trying to keep actively developing it more than the x.org developers are interested in doing (because they are working on wayland and see x.org as basically obsolete). That in itself is a reasonable goal but given the person responsible for it I would not be too optimistic about it.
- bananapub 1y ago
  > What's XLibre? a fork of X allegedly maintained by an arsehole > Are they taking Linux desktop accessibility more seriously? no
- lotharcable 1y ago
  XLibre is a fork of Xorg X11's codebase started by a developer who got kicked out of the Xorg project because he was making lots of changes that broke everything and had a hard time getting along with the other devs. Another dev blindly applied his MRs assuming he had tested stuff before submitting the request and they had to go back and revert a bunch of stuff. Broke nvidia compatibility, broke xrandr extension, and a bunch of other stuff.
  - wizzwizz4 1y ago
    [flagged]
  - ThrowOregonAway 1y ago
    Googler, NSA'er, or Red Hatter?
  - LightHugger 1y ago
    This is false, he we the sole person submitting large amounts of code for about a year and was widely praised, until he forked and red hat went nuclear on his account for opposing their corporate goals, he was not kicked out for bad changes or anything of the sort. Trying to revise history on this is malicious. The people like OA are spreading misinformation because the developer stated everyone was welcome to contribute and would oppose excessive politics. Keep in mind red hat is currently getting sued 3x over for blatantly racist policies which they used to ban other contributors and forced on their managers, they are evil people.
anonym29 1y ago
Can you elaborate more on discussions about XLibre being banned on here? Are accounts that mention it getting banned? Is there just mass downvoting by partisans with some kind of agenda? I get that X11 has security issues, but NVIDIA drivers and Wayland still seem to have no support now and no support planned for the future, so Wayland is a non-negotiable non-option for many (most?) Linux desktop users, including myself. That said, with the custodian of X11 refusing to merge 1000+ patches including various bug fixes and security fixes, I'm excited for the prospect of XLibre - this is exactly what Open Source, as an idea, was invented to facilitate - user choice.
- mkesper 1y ago
  Wayland supports nvidia cards, that they are not supported is FUD at this point in time.
  - colanderman 1y ago
    Really? As of a couple months ago I nearly totally hosed my Debian installation trying to get Wayland GDM working under Nvidia.
    - abhinavk 1y ago
      I haven't tried Debian but the latest releases of Ubuntu, Fedora as well as any rolling release distro work fine.
    - lotharcable 1y ago
      Nvidia under Linux has had a long and hard history. For most purposes, including gaming, it is best to avoid Nvidia hardware. Using Intel for laptops and AMD for dedicated GPUs is kinda the best general approach if you are planning on using Linux. Of course if you have a need for CUDA then Nvidia is the only game in town, but that is a different issue then Wayland support. For a while Nvidia was fighting the Xorg/Wayland devs over GBM vs EGLStreams which has delayed Wayland support. This has to do with the API extensions that allowed Wayland to manage application output buffers. Gnome was the only Wayland environment to try to support EGLStreams for Nvidia, but it really didn't do them any good. A while ago Nvidia eventually switched over to GBM and EGLStreams is dead, which helped out a lot of people running non-Gnome Wayland desktops. But there are lots of problems with Nvidia drivers besides that right now. The reality is that Nvidia doesn't care about consumer Linux desktop. Their primary focus is on Enterprise users in terms of people needing graphically accelerated desktops. So right now if you are running Linux on your personal workstations/desktops/laptops you are essentially beta testers for whenever Enterprise Linux distros make the switch to Wayland.
jauntywundrkind 1y ago
[flagged]
dang 1y ago
It'd be odd indeed if we'd banned something we hadn't heard of. After looking into it, I think what happened is that a few submissions were flagged by users, for the cromulent reason that the articles weren't very substantive. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44332956 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44332956 Edit: There also seems to be an aura of flamedrama around it. I didn't look closely, so I may be wrong, but if that's true, it's another reason why HN users would (cromulently) flag it.

XLibre talk is banned here, we DO have a choice.

bmacho 1y ago

[flagged]

tom_ 1y ago
I figured enough people just flag the submission, because they don't want to put up with the Xlibre guy's specific category of shit, or that of his inevitable hangers-on. Are they right? Are they wrong? Well, it's their decision. I've seen enough stuff I've flagged myself disappear quickly, and then reappear later (with more surprisingly reasonable discussion than I at least had predicted), to suggest that the admins will retrieve any popular discussion that was unreasonably assigned to the naughty step. (Of course, admin intervention in the other direction is always a possibility, and that's fair enough too. If you want unmoderated discussion, you'll need to go somewhere else.)
- bmacho 1y ago
  > I've seen enough stuff I've flagged disappear quickly, and then reappear later (with surprisingly reasonable discussion), to suggest that the admins will retrieve any popular discussion that was unreasonably assigned to the naughty step. That's the whole point. The default for everything that has at least a small hater base is to disappear, until for manual reenabling by moderators. This is not community moderation, it is de-facto pre-moderation. Which, in this case has a strong bias against xlibre despite it having literally nothing wrong with it (like the other stuff reappearing). It's gross censure (for the sake of a gross, user hostile corporate), and the moderators should be called out for it.
  - vidarh 1y ago
    While I find the moderation on HN a bit heavyhanded at times: When the originator of the XLibre fork decided to push a heavily partisan political stance right there in the README, he made a choice that ensured that the project will be controversial. He can fix that very easily if he wants to. As someone who detest Wayland, I would very much like to see Xlibre be sucessful, but I'm not surprised a lot of people will reflexively downvote or flag stuff about it given the circumstances. (EDIT: Having seen some of the other stuff he's said, I'm now not convinced he can do anything to salvage this as long as he's the figure-head for this new project)
    - bmacho 1y ago
      I don't think it is a good reason or even an acceptable reason to actively censor the news about the project, and prevent people to communicate about it. While XLibre is unfortunately political at the moment, this is not an excuse for what the HN staff is doing.
      - vidarh 1y ago
        You keep assuming that it's HN staff, but HN articles very often get flagged by regular users when they get political, and having seen some of the comments on one of the other articles, including some of yours, I'm not the slightest bit surprised they got flagged. If people want Xlibre to have a shot at HN at all, those are things to fix. Making unsubstantiated claims about HN staff is not going to change anything - if anything that too is likely to attract flagging.
        bmacho 1y ago
        No, a project or a project leader having haters (just this thread there are 3 distinct people jumping in with various insults or fake news on normal questions) should not be enough for something to get censored. What kind of 'Why are you hitting yourself?' logic is that? > You keep assuming that it's HN staff, It's HN staff, and I've already explained it. Read back.
        tom_ 1y ago
        It's quite possible that there are just people flagging things without commenting. I do this all the time if the discussion looks particularly stupid, unproductive, bad-tempered, pointless, and so on - or some combination thereof. (I haven't done it in this case, but only because I was silly enough to comment. This thread has been quite reasonably flagged, I'd say.) This is part of the how this particular site works. If you don't like it, that's fine, but you will have to go elsewhere to avoid it. And even if it is indeed the admins working away behind the scenes, a committee of shadowy puppetmasters directing their every move, suppression of X11 forks just one probing toothed tendril of this multi-armed octopus - well, this place was never a democracy anyway.

Ezhik 1y ago

What's XLibre? Are they taking Linux desktop accessibility more seriously?

resoluteteeth 1y ago
It's a fork of x.org that's trying to keep actively developing it more than the x.org developers are interested in doing (because they are working on wayland and see x.org as basically obsolete). That in itself is a reasonable goal but given the person responsible for it I would not be too optimistic about it.
bananapub 1y ago
> What's XLibre? a fork of X allegedly maintained by an arsehole > Are they taking Linux desktop accessibility more seriously? no
lotharcable 1y ago
XLibre is a fork of Xorg X11's codebase started by a developer who got kicked out of the Xorg project because he was making lots of changes that broke everything and had a hard time getting along with the other devs. Another dev blindly applied his MRs assuming he had tested stuff before submitting the request and they had to go back and revert a bunch of stuff. Broke nvidia compatibility, broke xrandr extension, and a bunch of other stuff.
- wizzwizz4 1y ago
  [flagged]
- ThrowOregonAway 1y ago
  Googler, NSA'er, or Red Hatter?
- LightHugger 1y ago
  This is false, he we the sole person submitting large amounts of code for about a year and was widely praised, until he forked and red hat went nuclear on his account for opposing their corporate goals, he was not kicked out for bad changes or anything of the sort. Trying to revise history on this is malicious. The people like OA are spreading misinformation because the developer stated everyone was welcome to contribute and would oppose excessive politics. Keep in mind red hat is currently getting sued 3x over for blatantly racist policies which they used to ban other contributors and forced on their managers, they are evil people.

anonym29 1y ago

Can you elaborate more on discussions about XLibre being banned on here? Are accounts that mention it getting banned? Is there just mass downvoting by partisans with some kind of agenda? I get that X11 has security issues, but NVIDIA drivers and Wayland still seem to have no support now and no support planned for the future, so Wayland is a non-negotiable non-option for many (most?) Linux desktop users, including myself. That said, with the custodian of X11 refusing to merge 1000+ patches including various bug fixes and security fixes, I'm excited for the prospect of XLibre - this is exactly what Open Source, as an idea, was invented to facilitate - user choice.

mkesper 1y ago
Wayland supports nvidia cards, that they are not supported is FUD at this point in time.
- colanderman 1y ago
  Really? As of a couple months ago I nearly totally hosed my Debian installation trying to get Wayland GDM working under Nvidia.
  - abhinavk 1y ago
    I haven't tried Debian but the latest releases of Ubuntu, Fedora as well as any rolling release distro work fine.
  - lotharcable 1y ago
    Nvidia under Linux has had a long and hard history. For most purposes, including gaming, it is best to avoid Nvidia hardware. Using Intel for laptops and AMD for dedicated GPUs is kinda the best general approach if you are planning on using Linux. Of course if you have a need for CUDA then Nvidia is the only game in town, but that is a different issue then Wayland support. For a while Nvidia was fighting the Xorg/Wayland devs over GBM vs EGLStreams which has delayed Wayland support. This has to do with the API extensions that allowed Wayland to manage application output buffers. Gnome was the only Wayland environment to try to support EGLStreams for Nvidia, but it really didn't do them any good. A while ago Nvidia eventually switched over to GBM and EGLStreams is dead, which helped out a lot of people running non-Gnome Wayland desktops. But there are lots of problems with Nvidia drivers besides that right now. The reality is that Nvidia doesn't care about consumer Linux desktop. Their primary focus is on Enterprise users in terms of people needing graphically accelerated desktops. So right now if you are running Linux on your personal workstations/desktops/laptops you are essentially beta testers for whenever Enterprise Linux distros make the switch to Wayland.

jauntywundrkind 1y ago

[flagged]

dang 1y ago

It'd be odd indeed if we'd banned something we hadn't heard of. After looking into it, I think what happened is that a few submissions were flagged by users, for the cromulent reason that the articles weren't very substantive. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44332956 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44332956 Edit: There also seems to be an aura of flamedrama around it. I didn't look closely, so I may be wrong, but if that's true, it's another reason why HN users would (cromulently) flag it.