5 ms·

My A11y Journey

27 points by ibotty 1y ago

Imustaskforhelp 1y ago
friend, its 403 forbidden. I do hope that you can fix it. I wish to read your article! Cheers
- bear8642 1y ago
  seems fixed
  - jen729w 1y ago
    Nope. iCloud Private Relay from Saigon, but doesn't work even if I unblock & show IP. And I don't know why OP is being downvoted. What's the point of putting a website up if you 403 people who try to visit? That is FUBAR BROKEN and is inexcusable, sorry.
    - dsr_ 1y ago
      Dreamwidth pretty aggressively blocks attacking IPs, and has a long cooldown period. It's completely excusable considering that they have been the target of a lot of bandwidth attacks... and that they don't owe you anything.
      - jen729w 1y ago
        > they don't owe you anything Right but a web host who blocks many many people from visiting the site isn't, IMHO, doing a very good job. I know it's hard. I don't care. That's their job. Blanket-blocking large portions of the Internet isn't a viable solution.
- haolez 1y ago
  Broken for me as well
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
meepmorp 1y ago
[flagged]
roenxi 1y ago
> A lot of the Linux accessibility support depended on X11 behaviour that is now widely regarded as a set of misfeatures. It's not actually good to be able to inject arbitrary input into an arbitrary window, and it's not good to be able to arbitrarily scrape out its contents. While that may be true, I'd suggest that it is not a consensus view and, more specifically, there is probably a consensus that the capability to do arbitrary scrapes and inputs needs to exist in a controlled fashion. Wayland had a bizarre stillbirth where the core team resisted screenshots, I can't remember when the Wayland ecosystem started getting serious about enabling screen sharing but I've got a memory that it was post-COVID. It goes to show how challenging the space is that Wayland managed to keep trudging on, but it was nothing to do with "woke" and a lot to do with "I don't accept that screenshots are a significant development hurdle". I still flat out don't trust them to have resolved all the issues crippling things like autoclickers but I'm hopeful I'm just very out of date. The initial take was poorly designed and that bit Wayland's adoption hard. The ecosystem may eventually reach the level of capability that X had in a standardised and secure way. Maybe it even has (I doubt it). But there is no consensus that security trumps having a usable desktop. I'm happy with an insecure desktop, anyone serious who wants to spy on me can use my phone. It is wildly insecure as far as I care and I carry it with me most hours. People trade this stuff off for convenience. Every time I've tried Wayland I discovered it had been secured against me using my system to get things done.
- p_l 1y ago
  Wayland early on decided that security is hard and the way forward is to just... not have the functionality. I remember when there was serious discussion copy-paste should be handled by D-Bus service provided by DE and implemented by "major toolkits". Same for anything else that might require permissions (this is how we got portals and their brokeness). And yeah, nothing in it was related to "woke" (that's just certain dev's personal weirdness), and a lot was related to really weird community situation that X.Org (which is not X11 itself) got itself in, like the costly and failed switch to autotools (they switched, but didn't get the results they undertook that pain for). Meanwhile they were operating from "lowest common denominator" code base that got extended a lot but never truly redone (compare Xsgi, which was a compositing X server and made extensive use of multiple visuals to ensure optimal resource usage).
bee_rider 1y ago
Accessibility seems to be the only real weakness of the open source “contribution drives focus” ethos. If I don’t like the way the window manager ecosystem is growing, it is fine if the only thing that blocks me from fixing it is my own laziness. It must not be that big a concern. But, if an ecosystem that excludes people through no fault of their own grows up, that sucks.
dhooper 1y ago
[flagged]
- ibotty 1y ago
  The numeronym a11y has been around for at least 15 years now.
- DHPersonal 1y ago
  Isn’t it used to write out “ally” in l33t speak?
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
voidUpdate 1y ago
What's an A11y? I cant find it in TFA or anything... l33tspeak for ally?
- yjftsjthsd-h 1y ago
  accessibility
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- phil-pickering 1y ago
  a11y = accessibility https://adrianroselli.com/2016/11/a11y-accessibility.html https://adrianroselli.com/2016/11/a11y-accessibility.html
- dhooper 1y ago
  This is a great example of why replacing the middle of a word with numbers is a bad idea. it makes the word less accessible.
yjftsjthsd-h 1y ago
> X11 never had a model to permit this for accessibility tooling while blocking it for other code. Wayland does, but suffers from the surrounding infrastructure not being well developed yet. Does it? Because last I checked, Wayland did not, in fact, have the same features, and you don't get credit for "permitting" use of something that doesn't exist. > When you read anything about Linux accessibility, ask yourself whether you're reading something written by either a user of the accessibility features, or a developer of them. If they're neither, ask yourself why they actually care and what they're doing to make the future better. Okay: AFAIK, mjg59 is not a user of a11y features, and is not a developer of them (22 years ago yes, since then no). Ergo, by his own standards he isn't allowed to talk about this.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
cadamsdotcom 1y ago
A11y is a great vector for automation of UI! Using a11y APIs for an app’s tests exercises both the app and its a11y. Apparently Apple does some of its automated testing this way. Yes, the test suite must be created and run regularly. So there is a non zero dev effort and ongoing cloud resources. But once in place it’s win win. Perhaps open source culture could follow in Apple’s footsteps?

My A11y Journey

27 points by ibotty 1y ago

Imustaskforhelp 1y ago

friend, its 403 forbidden. I do hope that you can fix it. I wish to read your article! Cheers

bear8642 1y ago
seems fixed
- jen729w 1y ago
  Nope. iCloud Private Relay from Saigon, but doesn't work even if I unblock & show IP. And I don't know why OP is being downvoted. What's the point of putting a website up if you 403 people who try to visit? That is FUBAR BROKEN and is inexcusable, sorry.
  - dsr_ 1y ago
    Dreamwidth pretty aggressively blocks attacking IPs, and has a long cooldown period. It's completely excusable considering that they have been the target of a lot of bandwidth attacks... and that they don't owe you anything.
    - jen729w 1y ago
      > they don't owe you anything Right but a web host who blocks many many people from visiting the site isn't, IMHO, doing a very good job. I know it's hard. I don't care. That's their job. Blanket-blocking large portions of the Internet isn't a viable solution.
haolez 1y ago
Broken for me as well
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]

meepmorp 1y ago

[flagged]

roenxi 1y ago

> A lot of the Linux accessibility support depended on X11 behaviour that is now widely regarded as a set of misfeatures. It's not actually good to be able to inject arbitrary input into an arbitrary window, and it's not good to be able to arbitrarily scrape out its contents. While that may be true, I'd suggest that it is not a consensus view and, more specifically, there is probably a consensus that the capability to do arbitrary scrapes and inputs needs to exist in a controlled fashion. Wayland had a bizarre stillbirth where the core team resisted screenshots, I can't remember when the Wayland ecosystem started getting serious about enabling screen sharing but I've got a memory that it was post-COVID. It goes to show how challenging the space is that Wayland managed to keep trudging on, but it was nothing to do with "woke" and a lot to do with "I don't accept that screenshots are a significant development hurdle". I still flat out don't trust them to have resolved all the issues crippling things like autoclickers but I'm hopeful I'm just very out of date. The initial take was poorly designed and that bit Wayland's adoption hard. The ecosystem may eventually reach the level of capability that X had in a standardised and secure way. Maybe it even has (I doubt it). But there is no consensus that security trumps having a usable desktop. I'm happy with an insecure desktop, anyone serious who wants to spy on me can use my phone. It is wildly insecure as far as I care and I carry it with me most hours. People trade this stuff off for convenience. Every time I've tried Wayland I discovered it had been secured against me using my system to get things done.

p_l 1y ago
Wayland early on decided that security is hard and the way forward is to just... not have the functionality. I remember when there was serious discussion copy-paste should be handled by D-Bus service provided by DE and implemented by "major toolkits". Same for anything else that might require permissions (this is how we got portals and their brokeness). And yeah, nothing in it was related to "woke" (that's just certain dev's personal weirdness), and a lot was related to really weird community situation that X.Org (which is not X11 itself) got itself in, like the costly and failed switch to autotools (they switched, but didn't get the results they undertook that pain for). Meanwhile they were operating from "lowest common denominator" code base that got extended a lot but never truly redone (compare Xsgi, which was a compositing X server and made extensive use of multiple visuals to ensure optimal resource usage).

bee_rider 1y ago

Accessibility seems to be the only real weakness of the open source “contribution drives focus” ethos. If I don’t like the way the window manager ecosystem is growing, it is fine if the only thing that blocks me from fixing it is my own laziness. It must not be that big a concern. But, if an ecosystem that excludes people through no fault of their own grows up, that sucks.

dhooper 1y ago

[flagged]

ibotty 1y ago
The numeronym a11y has been around for at least 15 years now.
DHPersonal 1y ago
Isn’t it used to write out “ally” in l33t speak?
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]

voidUpdate 1y ago

What's an A11y? I cant find it in TFA or anything... l33tspeak for ally?

yjftsjthsd-h 1y ago
accessibility
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
phil-pickering 1y ago
a11y = accessibility https://adrianroselli.com/2016/11/a11y-accessibility.html https://adrianroselli.com/2016/11/a11y-accessibility.html
dhooper 1y ago
This is a great example of why replacing the middle of a word with numbers is a bad idea. it makes the word less accessible.

yjftsjthsd-h 1y ago

> X11 never had a model to permit this for accessibility tooling while blocking it for other code. Wayland does, but suffers from the surrounding infrastructure not being well developed yet. Does it? Because last I checked, Wayland did not, in fact, have the same features, and you don't get credit for "permitting" use of something that doesn't exist. > When you read anything about Linux accessibility, ask yourself whether you're reading something written by either a user of the accessibility features, or a developer of them. If they're neither, ask yourself why they actually care and what they're doing to make the future better. Okay: AFAIK, mjg59 is not a user of a11y features, and is not a developer of them (22 years ago yes, since then no). Ergo, by his own standards he isn't allowed to talk about this.

deleted 1y ago
[deleted]

cadamsdotcom 1y ago

A11y is a great vector for automation of UI! Using a11y APIs for an app’s tests exercises both the app and its a11y. Apparently Apple does some of its automated testing this way. Yes, the test suite must be created and run regularly. So there is a non zero dev effort and ongoing cloud resources. But once in place it’s win win. Perhaps open source culture could follow in Apple’s footsteps?