5 ms·

No, not genetics, but heritage is a valid, and very commonly used, criterion. I.e., the following is, I believe, a reasonable argument: "I should have a right

No, not genetics, but heritage is a valid, and very commonly used, criterion. I.e., the following is, I believe, a reasonable argument: "I should have a right to live in this general patch of land, since my grand-parents lived here. Maybe my parents moved away and I was born somewhere else, but they still had a right to live here and I should have it too. I may have to buy some land to have this right, I'm not saying I should be given land - but I should be allowed to do so. Additionally, it matters that my grand-parents were not invaders to this land. Their parents and grand-parents had also lived here, and so on for many generations." This doesn't imply genetic heritage necessarily - cultural heritage and the notions of parents are not necessarily genetic. I might have ~0% of the specific DNA of some great-great-grand-parent (or even 0% of my parents' DNA, if I am adopted) - but I'm still their descendant. Now, how far you want to stretch this is very much debatable.

tome 1y ago
This seems at odds with your earlier claim that "The 2-3000 years of history are entirely and wholly irrelevant". In fact the history of those 2-3000 years seems essential to determining "heritage".
- simiones 1y ago
  That was in response to the argument that I believe the GP was making by bringing into discussion this timeline. The typical way this is presented by adherents of Zionism is something like "the Jewish people are the original people who lived in Israel/were given it by God; this land was stolen from the Jewish people and they were expelled, first by the Romans and then by the Arabs; the foundation of modern-day Israel marked the return home of the Jewish people, as was their right by their 2-3000 years of having lived there; the Palestinians were just the latest population living on this stolen land". By this logic, they then claim that Israel are not occupying any land, even Gaza or the West Bank, it is the Palestinians who had been occupying the land of Israel. My claim is that this is factually incorrect by any stretch of the imagination, as soon as we recognize that the modern-day Palestinians and the modern-day Jewish people are just as much descendants of the ancient Israelites. Just because their language, culture, and religion have diverged, there is nothing that ties one group more to that land than the other (if anything, those that had left have a lesser tie than those that stayed, even if the culture of those that stayed diverged). So the claim of descent and continuity with the ancient kingdom of Israel, the 2-3000 year old history, is entirely irrelevant.
  - tome 1y ago
    Are you responding to an argument zaphar didn't make? He/she just said "your first paragraph ... ignores nearly 2-3000 years of history", which is true. Now you seem to be saying "if you look at the first 2-3000 years of history you will see that the first 2-3000 years of history are irrelevant", which is about as self-defeating as an argument can possibly be!
    - komali2 1y ago
      [flagged]
      - tome 1y ago
        It's extremely presumptuous to declare I'm engaging in bad faith (especially "incredibly bad"). I can assure you I'm engaging in good faith, and attempting to seek some clarity on the assumptions underlying the conclusions a few people here have reached. Naturally, it is often very uncomfortable to be challenged on deep assumptions.
        komali2 1y ago
        [flagged]
        tome 1y ago
        Let's have a look at the history of the thread: pbiggar made a claim, now deleted (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44317597 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44317597) zaphar says: "it ignores nearly 2-3000 years of history" (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44317639 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44317639) simiones says: "The 2-3000 years of history are entirely and wholly irrelevant", and also makes some suggestion that I believed could indicate that genetic heritage was what determines which people should live where. However, he subsequently clarified in https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44318095 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44318095 that he was not making that claim. Yet in doing so claimed that "This doesn't imply genetic heritage necessarily - cultural heritage and the notions of parents are not necessarily genetic", drawing on the notion of "culture". Now, cultural heritage very specifically implies that history is relevant, because it's something passed down over centuries. I then challenged him that his invocation of cultural heritage was in opposition to his earlier claim that "The 2-3000 years of history are entirely and wholly irrelevant" (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44318122 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44318122) to which he responded that "That was in response to the argument that I believe the GP was making" (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44318317 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44318317), but that's a complete presumption. The GP hadn't presented any specific argument, merely factually pointed out that some long stretch of history was missing from the analysis of pbiggar, so I asked simiones if he was responding to an argument not actually made by zaphar. Furthermore, I reiterated that simiones seemed to have defeated his own claim that "The 2-3000 years of history are entirely and wholly irrelevant". This is where the original discussion ends, and you entered the thread. I see you making a number of unsubstantiated accusations of bad faith and trolling, but not actually engaging in the discussion of the topic at hand. So, I have presented here a summary of a thread that highlights my process of rational enquiry. I don't see here what could be taken as bad faith or trolling. Maybe you can explain further? Or perhaps maybe you can you engage with the topic at hand? I would be willing to (though it goes rather far off the original topic).

tome 1y ago

This seems at odds with your earlier claim that "The 2-3000 years of history are entirely and wholly irrelevant". In fact the history of those 2-3000 years seems essential to determining "heritage".

simiones 1y ago
That was in response to the argument that I believe the GP was making by bringing into discussion this timeline. The typical way this is presented by adherents of Zionism is something like "the Jewish people are the original people who lived in Israel/were given it by God; this land was stolen from the Jewish people and they were expelled, first by the Romans and then by the Arabs; the foundation of modern-day Israel marked the return home of the Jewish people, as was their right by their 2-3000 years of having lived there; the Palestinians were just the latest population living on this stolen land". By this logic, they then claim that Israel are not occupying any land, even Gaza or the West Bank, it is the Palestinians who had been occupying the land of Israel. My claim is that this is factually incorrect by any stretch of the imagination, as soon as we recognize that the modern-day Palestinians and the modern-day Jewish people are just as much descendants of the ancient Israelites. Just because their language, culture, and religion have diverged, there is nothing that ties one group more to that land than the other (if anything, those that had left have a lesser tie than those that stayed, even if the culture of those that stayed diverged). So the claim of descent and continuity with the ancient kingdom of Israel, the 2-3000 year old history, is entirely irrelevant.
- tome 1y ago
  Are you responding to an argument zaphar didn't make? He/she just said "your first paragraph ... ignores nearly 2-3000 years of history", which is true. Now you seem to be saying "if you look at the first 2-3000 years of history you will see that the first 2-3000 years of history are irrelevant", which is about as self-defeating as an argument can possibly be!
  - komali2 1y ago
    [flagged]
    - tome 1y ago
      It's extremely presumptuous to declare I'm engaging in bad faith (especially "incredibly bad"). I can assure you I'm engaging in good faith, and attempting to seek some clarity on the assumptions underlying the conclusions a few people here have reached. Naturally, it is often very uncomfortable to be challenged on deep assumptions.
      - komali2 1y ago
        [flagged]
        tome 1y ago
        Let's have a look at the history of the thread: pbiggar made a claim, now deleted (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44317597 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44317597) zaphar says: "it ignores nearly 2-3000 years of history" (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44317639 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44317639) simiones says: "The 2-3000 years of history are entirely and wholly irrelevant", and also makes some suggestion that I believed could indicate that genetic heritage was what determines which people should live where. However, he subsequently clarified in https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44318095 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44318095 that he was not making that claim. Yet in doing so claimed that "This doesn't imply genetic heritage necessarily - cultural heritage and the notions of parents are not necessarily genetic", drawing on the notion of "culture". Now, cultural heritage very specifically implies that history is relevant, because it's something passed down over centuries. I then challenged him that his invocation of cultural heritage was in opposition to his earlier claim that "The 2-3000 years of history are entirely and wholly irrelevant" (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44318122 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44318122) to which he responded that "That was in response to the argument that I believe the GP was making" (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44318317 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44318317), but that's a complete presumption. The GP hadn't presented any specific argument, merely factually pointed out that some long stretch of history was missing from the analysis of pbiggar, so I asked simiones if he was responding to an argument not actually made by zaphar. Furthermore, I reiterated that simiones seemed to have defeated his own claim that "The 2-3000 years of history are entirely and wholly irrelevant". This is where the original discussion ends, and you entered the thread. I see you making a number of unsubstantiated accusations of bad faith and trolling, but not actually engaging in the discussion of the topic at hand. So, I have presented here a summary of a thread that highlights my process of rational enquiry. I don't see here what could be taken as bad faith or trolling. Maybe you can explain further? Or perhaps maybe you can you engage with the topic at hand? I would be willing to (though it goes rather far off the original topic).