4 ms·

Also... > they gave off some (not all) of the vibes of a cult ...after describing his visit with an atmosphere that sounds extremely cult-like.

wizzwizz4 1y ago
No, Guru Eliezer Yudkowsky wrote an essay about how people asking "This isn’t a cult, is it?" bugs him, so it's fine actually. https://www.readthesequences.com/Cultish-Countercultishness https://www.readthesequences.com/Cultish-Countercultishness
- NoGravitas 1y ago
  Hank Hill: Are y'all with the cult? Cult member: It's not a cult! It's an organization that promotes love and.. Hank Hill: This is it.
  - throwaway314155 1y ago
    Does this quote make more sense in context? I don't watch the show.
    - AntiDyatlov 1y ago
      It makes perfect sense as a comment, seeing the clip from the show doesn't add anything.
      - throwaway314155 1y ago
        I think i'm seeing it now. "This is it" implies Hank is actually looking for the cult in question, something that I guess seems odd to me without knowing the plot of the episode. Thanks for clarifying though! Oh wait, you didn't.
- dcminter 1y ago
  Extreme eagerness to disavow accusations of cultishness ... doth the lady protest too much perhaps? My hobby is occasionally compared to a cult. The typical reaction of an adherent to this accusation is generally "Heh, yeah, totally a cult." Edit: Oh, but you call him "Guru" ... so on reflection you were probably (?) making the same point... (whoosh, sorry).
  - FeepingCreature 1y ago
    > Extreme eagerness to disavow accusations of cultishness ... doth the lady protest too much perhaps? You don't understand how anxious the rationalist community was around that time. We're not talking self-assured confident people here. These articles were written primarily to calm down people who were panickedly asking "we're not a cult, are we" approximately every five minutes.
ARandumGuy 1y ago
At least one cult originates from the Rationalist movement, the Zizians [1]. A cult that straight up murdered at least four people. And while the Zizian belief system is certainly more extreme then mainstream Rationalist beliefs, it's not that much more extreme. For more info, the Behind the Bastards podcast [2] did a pretty good series on how the Zizians sprung up out of the Bay area Rationalist scene. I'd highly recommend giving it a listen if you want a non-rationalist perspective on the Rationalist movement. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zizians https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zizians [2]: https://www.iheart.com/podcast/105-behind-the-bastards-29236323/episode/part-one-the-zizians-how-harry-269931896/ https://www.iheart.com/podcast/105-behind-the-bastards-29236...
- cubefox 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - ARandumGuy 1y ago
    Ziz did leave the rationalist movement, but to imply there's no link is simply dishonest. Ziz spent a lot of time in the Bay area Rationalist scene, and a lot of her belief system has clear Rationalist origins (such as timeless decision theory and the general obsession with an all-powerful AI). Ziz did not come up with this stuff in a vacuum, she got it from being a rationalist. Also, I'm not sure if you did this intentionally, but Ziz is a trans woman. She may have done some awful shit, but that doesn't justify misgendering her.
    - cubefox 1y ago
      Just because there is some weak relation to rationalism doesn't justify guilt-by-association. You could have pointed equally out that most of the Zizians identified as MtF transexuals and vegans, and then blamed the latter groups for being allegedly extreme. Which would be no less absurd. > She may have done some awful shit Murdering several people is slightly worse than "awful shit".
      - 1y ago
jcranmer 1y ago
The podcast Behind the Bastards described Rationalism not as a cult but as the fertile soil which is perfect for growing cults, leading to the development of cults like the Zizians (who both the Rationalists and Zizians are at pains to emphasize their mutual hostility to one another, but if you're not part of either movement, it's pretty clear how Rationalism can lead to something like the Zizians).
- astrange 1y ago
  I don't think that podcast has very in-depth observations. It's just another iteration of east coast culture media people who used to be on Twitter a lot, isn't it? > the fertile soil which is perfect for growing cults This is true but it's not rationalism, it's just that they're from Berkeley. As far as I can tell if you live in Berkeley you just end up joining a cult.
  - sapphicsnail 1y ago
    I lived in Berkeley for a decade and there weren't many people I would say were in a cult. It's actually quite the opposite. There's way more willingness to be weird and do your own thing there. Most of the rationalists I met in the Bay Area moved there specifically to be closer to the community.

wizzwizz4 1y ago

No, Guru Eliezer Yudkowsky wrote an essay about how people asking "This isn’t a cult, is it?" bugs him, so it's fine actually. https://www.readthesequences.com/Cultish-Countercultishness https://www.readthesequences.com/Cultish-Countercultishness

NoGravitas 1y ago
Hank Hill: Are y'all with the cult? Cult member: It's not a cult! It's an organization that promotes love and.. Hank Hill: This is it.
- throwaway314155 1y ago
  Does this quote make more sense in context? I don't watch the show.
  - AntiDyatlov 1y ago
    It makes perfect sense as a comment, seeing the clip from the show doesn't add anything.
    - throwaway314155 1y ago
      I think i'm seeing it now. "This is it" implies Hank is actually looking for the cult in question, something that I guess seems odd to me without knowing the plot of the episode. Thanks for clarifying though! Oh wait, you didn't.
dcminter 1y ago
Extreme eagerness to disavow accusations of cultishness ... doth the lady protest too much perhaps? My hobby is occasionally compared to a cult. The typical reaction of an adherent to this accusation is generally "Heh, yeah, totally a cult." Edit: Oh, but you call him "Guru" ... so on reflection you were probably (?) making the same point... (whoosh, sorry).
- FeepingCreature 1y ago
  > Extreme eagerness to disavow accusations of cultishness ... doth the lady protest too much perhaps? You don't understand how anxious the rationalist community was around that time. We're not talking self-assured confident people here. These articles were written primarily to calm down people who were panickedly asking "we're not a cult, are we" approximately every five minutes.

ARandumGuy 1y ago

At least one cult originates from the Rationalist movement, the Zizians [1]. A cult that straight up murdered at least four people. And while the Zizian belief system is certainly more extreme then mainstream Rationalist beliefs, it's not that much more extreme. For more info, the Behind the Bastards podcast [2] did a pretty good series on how the Zizians sprung up out of the Bay area Rationalist scene. I'd highly recommend giving it a listen if you want a non-rationalist perspective on the Rationalist movement. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zizians https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zizians [2]: https://www.iheart.com/podcast/105-behind-the-bastards-29236323/episode/part-one-the-zizians-how-harry-269931896/ https://www.iheart.com/podcast/105-behind-the-bastards-29236...

cubefox 1y ago
[flagged]
- ARandumGuy 1y ago
  Ziz did leave the rationalist movement, but to imply there's no link is simply dishonest. Ziz spent a lot of time in the Bay area Rationalist scene, and a lot of her belief system has clear Rationalist origins (such as timeless decision theory and the general obsession with an all-powerful AI). Ziz did not come up with this stuff in a vacuum, she got it from being a rationalist. Also, I'm not sure if you did this intentionally, but Ziz is a trans woman. She may have done some awful shit, but that doesn't justify misgendering her.
  - cubefox 1y ago
    Just because there is some weak relation to rationalism doesn't justify guilt-by-association. You could have pointed equally out that most of the Zizians identified as MtF transexuals and vegans, and then blamed the latter groups for being allegedly extreme. Which would be no less absurd. > She may have done some awful shit Murdering several people is slightly worse than "awful shit".
    - 1y ago

jcranmer 1y ago

The podcast Behind the Bastards described Rationalism not as a cult but as the fertile soil which is perfect for growing cults, leading to the development of cults like the Zizians (who both the Rationalists and Zizians are at pains to emphasize their mutual hostility to one another, but if you're not part of either movement, it's pretty clear how Rationalism can lead to something like the Zizians).

astrange 1y ago
I don't think that podcast has very in-depth observations. It's just another iteration of east coast culture media people who used to be on Twitter a lot, isn't it? > the fertile soil which is perfect for growing cults This is true but it's not rationalism, it's just that they're from Berkeley. As far as I can tell if you live in Berkeley you just end up joining a cult.
- sapphicsnail 1y ago
  I lived in Berkeley for a decade and there weren't many people I would say were in a cult. It's actually quite the opposite. There's way more willingness to be weird and do your own thing there. Most of the rationalists I met in the Bay Area moved there specifically to be closer to the community.