3 ms·

The criticism of Israel thing is not what you think it’s for.

by georgeburdell 1y ago

lurk2 1y ago
What do you think it is for?
- georgeburdell 1y ago
  It’s Trump’s latest incarnation of a “Muslim ban”. As a side bonus, it also targets the Left
  - somenameforme 1y ago
    This is nonsense. At this point in time anybody who isn't of a very specific political persuasion is going to be criticizing Israel, including most Israelis!
    - KingMob 1y ago
      > including most Israelis! Not quite. Don't confuse criticism of Netanyahu with criticism of Israel. Many dislike Netanyahu for various reasons, but are still broadly supportive of Israeli policies.
      - somenameforme 1y ago
        This is definitely not true. For instance 69% of Israelis support(ed) ending the Gaza 'war' after a hostage exchange. [1] Only 21% opposed. It's going to be impossible to get reliable polling on Iran right now because Israel's going extremely authoritarian with domestic 'information warfare.' But it's fairly certain that most Israelis will oppose what's happening, once they can speak again. For instance in early 2024 Israeli decided to destroy the Iranian embassy in Syria, killing multiple generals amongst others. This led to a largely performative counter-strike by Iran. And here 74% of Israelis opposed continued escalation if it harmed security alliances. [2] And the Israeli government decided to carry out the recent invasion when global support for Israel is already at record lows, which means it is obviously going to hurt security alliances, especially in the mid-term (double entendre intended). Search my post history and you'll find I've been notably favorable towards most Trump policies. If an election was held tomorrow I'd happily vote against him (and anybody else who supports this stupidity), a million times over, if he drags us into another forever war. And I think that corresponds to a sizable chunk of his support. People think "we" wanted out of Ukraine out of preference to Russia. In reality "we" just want the US to stop getting involved, and wasting money (to say nothing of lives), in stupid wars all around the world, period. [1] - https://www.timesofisrael.com/69-of-israelis-54-of-coalition-voters-back-ending-war-in-exchange-for-hostages-poll/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/69-of-israelis-54-of-coalition... [2] - https://www.timesofisrael.com/poll-74-of-israelis-oppose-counterstrike-on-iran-if-it-harms-security-alliances/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/poll-74-of-israelis-oppose-cou...
        KingMob 1y ago
        The war itself is unpopular, but the long-standing policies that contributed to it, like supporting settlers, second-class citizenship, restrictions on movement, etc. are all generally popular last I checked.
        Aerbil313 1y ago
        You can't get a man to understand something when his... salary, home, neighborhood, citizenship, country, and government depends on it.
        somenameforme 1y ago
        I think people are capable of nuance. Even if one might support settlers or even things like a normal war, that's dramatically different than supporting behavior that in one instance seems to be trending towards literally genocidal in nature (and not the hyperbolic genocide that propaganda always claims the 'other side' is engaging in any relatively normal war), and in another instance is just seemingly psychotic and, at best, demonstrating a severe lack of intelligence - both state and personal.
      - JumpCrisscross 1y ago
        > Many dislike Netanyahu for various reasons, but are still broadly supportive of Israeli policies More importantly, most Americans don’t care about foreign policy. The decades-long failure by the American left has been projecting Vietnam-era protests against the draft to modern foreign policy.
    - llm_nerd 1y ago
      But they are spot on. The performative declaration of war on so-called antisemitism by this administration is 100% just a façade to target Muslims. Anyone who truly believes this administration, or the American right wing in general, cares about antisemitism suffers from extraordinary levels of gullibility. The incantation of George Soros as the master manipulator behind everything "the left" does in the US is a pretty transparent placeholder for "The Jews Control Everything". White replacement theory is predicated on the belief that "The Jews" are for some reason trying to water down every white nation with masses of immigrants by sneaking in and sneakily changing immigration to open borders. Virtually every crazed conspiracy among the US right somehow ends up at "The Jews". But it is utterly perverse that questions or criticism of the actions of a pretty vile sovereign can be dismissed as antisemitism. Many if not most American Jewish people are deeply critical of the things the Israeli government is doing (all under the cover of "to question it is antisemitism"). Israelis, though....polling of Israelis is extraordinarily uncomfortable, to such a degree that I would hardly consider the country "Western" as it is often called.
      - somenameforme 1y ago
        Trump's daughter is married to an Orthodox Jew and also converted to Judaism herself. That's something that's not like other religions where you can just say you're a Christian (of this denominator or that) - it's an official, tested, and very extended affair, particularly in the Orthodox tradition. In other words, it's "real." And Trump has always been deferent, come obsequious, to Israel, like many US politicians. In fact he was the first sitting President to visit the Wailing Wall back in his first term - traditionally US Presidents do that before elections. Evangelicals are also probably the most reliable base for the Republican party (though remain a minority within it), and they have an extremely positive relationship with Israel.* And then on top of this the Israel lobby is well funded and tends to shower pro-Israel politicians in money in public, and I doubt the support ends there. This is a somewhat long-winded way to say that - yes I do believe this administration is completely and sincerely focused on Israel and the interests of Israel, and I think there are a million reasons to think this is the case. And I also don't think this is a good thing, because the Israeli government seems to have lost their minds, and I think the world was already far closer to WW3 (and has been for a number of years now) than most appreciate. What would be billions dead because of a nutter government and US politicians love affair with Israel would make just about as much sense as Brits killing Germans because a Bosnian Serb assassinated an Austro-Hungarian royalty. ---- * - that's actually changing with younger generations, but it still remains mostly true.
  - lurk2 1y ago
    I think that’s what most people thought it was for.

The criticism of Israel thing is not what you think it’s for.

lurk2 1y ago

What do you think it is for?

georgeburdell 1y ago
It’s Trump’s latest incarnation of a “Muslim ban”. As a side bonus, it also targets the Left
- somenameforme 1y ago
  This is nonsense. At this point in time anybody who isn't of a very specific political persuasion is going to be criticizing Israel, including most Israelis!
  - KingMob 1y ago
    > including most Israelis! Not quite. Don't confuse criticism of Netanyahu with criticism of Israel. Many dislike Netanyahu for various reasons, but are still broadly supportive of Israeli policies.
    - somenameforme 1y ago
      This is definitely not true. For instance 69% of Israelis support(ed) ending the Gaza 'war' after a hostage exchange. [1] Only 21% opposed. It's going to be impossible to get reliable polling on Iran right now because Israel's going extremely authoritarian with domestic 'information warfare.' But it's fairly certain that most Israelis will oppose what's happening, once they can speak again. For instance in early 2024 Israeli decided to destroy the Iranian embassy in Syria, killing multiple generals amongst others. This led to a largely performative counter-strike by Iran. And here 74% of Israelis opposed continued escalation if it harmed security alliances. [2] And the Israeli government decided to carry out the recent invasion when global support for Israel is already at record lows, which means it is obviously going to hurt security alliances, especially in the mid-term (double entendre intended). Search my post history and you'll find I've been notably favorable towards most Trump policies. If an election was held tomorrow I'd happily vote against him (and anybody else who supports this stupidity), a million times over, if he drags us into another forever war. And I think that corresponds to a sizable chunk of his support. People think "we" wanted out of Ukraine out of preference to Russia. In reality "we" just want the US to stop getting involved, and wasting money (to say nothing of lives), in stupid wars all around the world, period. [1] - https://www.timesofisrael.com/69-of-israelis-54-of-coalition-voters-back-ending-war-in-exchange-for-hostages-poll/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/69-of-israelis-54-of-coalition... [2] - https://www.timesofisrael.com/poll-74-of-israelis-oppose-counterstrike-on-iran-if-it-harms-security-alliances/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/poll-74-of-israelis-oppose-cou...
      - KingMob 1y ago
        The war itself is unpopular, but the long-standing policies that contributed to it, like supporting settlers, second-class citizenship, restrictions on movement, etc. are all generally popular last I checked.
        Aerbil313 1y ago
        You can't get a man to understand something when his... salary, home, neighborhood, citizenship, country, and government depends on it.
        somenameforme 1y ago
        I think people are capable of nuance. Even if one might support settlers or even things like a normal war, that's dramatically different than supporting behavior that in one instance seems to be trending towards literally genocidal in nature (and not the hyperbolic genocide that propaganda always claims the 'other side' is engaging in any relatively normal war), and in another instance is just seemingly psychotic and, at best, demonstrating a severe lack of intelligence - both state and personal.
    - JumpCrisscross 1y ago
      > Many dislike Netanyahu for various reasons, but are still broadly supportive of Israeli policies More importantly, most Americans don’t care about foreign policy. The decades-long failure by the American left has been projecting Vietnam-era protests against the draft to modern foreign policy.
  - llm_nerd 1y ago
    But they are spot on. The performative declaration of war on so-called antisemitism by this administration is 100% just a façade to target Muslims. Anyone who truly believes this administration, or the American right wing in general, cares about antisemitism suffers from extraordinary levels of gullibility. The incantation of George Soros as the master manipulator behind everything "the left" does in the US is a pretty transparent placeholder for "The Jews Control Everything". White replacement theory is predicated on the belief that "The Jews" are for some reason trying to water down every white nation with masses of immigrants by sneaking in and sneakily changing immigration to open borders. Virtually every crazed conspiracy among the US right somehow ends up at "The Jews". But it is utterly perverse that questions or criticism of the actions of a pretty vile sovereign can be dismissed as antisemitism. Many if not most American Jewish people are deeply critical of the things the Israeli government is doing (all under the cover of "to question it is antisemitism"). Israelis, though....polling of Israelis is extraordinarily uncomfortable, to such a degree that I would hardly consider the country "Western" as it is often called.
    - somenameforme 1y ago
      Trump's daughter is married to an Orthodox Jew and also converted to Judaism herself. That's something that's not like other religions where you can just say you're a Christian (of this denominator or that) - it's an official, tested, and very extended affair, particularly in the Orthodox tradition. In other words, it's "real." And Trump has always been deferent, come obsequious, to Israel, like many US politicians. In fact he was the first sitting President to visit the Wailing Wall back in his first term - traditionally US Presidents do that before elections. Evangelicals are also probably the most reliable base for the Republican party (though remain a minority within it), and they have an extremely positive relationship with Israel.* And then on top of this the Israel lobby is well funded and tends to shower pro-Israel politicians in money in public, and I doubt the support ends there. This is a somewhat long-winded way to say that - yes I do believe this administration is completely and sincerely focused on Israel and the interests of Israel, and I think there are a million reasons to think this is the case. And I also don't think this is a good thing, because the Israeli government seems to have lost their minds, and I think the world was already far closer to WW3 (and has been for a number of years now) than most appreciate. What would be billions dead because of a nutter government and US politicians love affair with Israel would make just about as much sense as Brits killing Germans because a Bosnian Serb assassinated an Austro-Hungarian royalty. ---- * - that's actually changing with younger generations, but it still remains mostly true.
- lurk2 1y ago
  I think that’s what most people thought it was for.