5 ms·

> A good laptop, but not a good value Where "value" is purely monetary, I think that pretty succinctly sums up my experience/views on the Framework product lin

> A good laptop, but not a good value Where "value" is purely monetary, I think that pretty succinctly sums up my experience/views on the Framework product line. They make good laptops, but you can generally get more for fewer dollars. If you're shopping on price, you can probably just skip right over their entire product line. That doesn't mean that their offering doesn't have value. It has value has a vote with your wallet for sustainable, repairable products. It has value as an easily repairable and customizable laptop. It has value in some esoteric use cases it can be customized into (e.g., 4xM.2 NVME slots). Would love to see some reviews just get this out of the way up front and spend more words on the product itself. Personally, I'm glad there's a company out there serving a market niche besides being the lowest cost, most value-engineered product. I don't mind paying a bit extra for that in exchange for the other value I get out of it. (And all that said--at the high end specs their prices get a fair bit more competitive. The price to upgrade a laptop from 16GB -> 128GB on Dell's site is _more than an entire FW16 w/ Ryzen 9 + 96GB RAM_.)

m463 1y ago
this same lack of critical thinking is why you can't search for decently-rated dumb tvs, because they lose points for not being smart. sigh.
atrus 1y ago
I think the repairabilty makes it hard to even compare monetary value, since in theory, you'd be keeping the same body, while swapping out the mainboard. Is it cheaper to buy two other laptops compared to one laptop + mainboard? That's what, a 3-5 year timeline? Who knows what prices/capabilities/etc will be like then.
- nucleardog 1y ago
  Yeah, I personally take that into account however I can see why someone may not. Framework has released fairly consistent upgrades for the Framework 13, but there's no guarantee that they will continue to do so, will release upgrades for the Framework 16, etc. I think in a few years when they've been in business for closer to a decade than not and released updates across the whole product line, it'd be pretty hard for anyone to make an argument that that _shouldn't_ be factored in.
- benrutter 1y ago
  Yeah, this is my experience with a Fairphone 4. It seemed pricey initially, but I have saved sooo much by being able to carry out simple repairs.
  - paldepind2 1y ago
    How often do you break your phone that you've save sooo much? Mine is at least 2 years older (I got it 2 years before the Fairphone 4 was released) and I've spend 0$ dollars repairing it.
    - benrutter 1y ago
      Embarrasingly often! Things I've done specifically: - Getting cement in the charger port - Dropping the phone on its screen breaking it With some phones both of those could be full replacements.
    - XorNot 1y ago
      In a laptop context the advent of soldered on RAM and SSDs has made this a more significant issue though. That 1TB I thought was enough might not be, and suddenly I need to buy a whole new machine to upgrade.
      - christophilus 1y ago
        Are the SSDs often soldered? I thought that was only the RAM.
        kelnos 1y ago
        Depends on the brand/model, of course, but I think for a 13"-sized laptop, it's pretty common to solder in the storage as well.
    - jijijijij 1y ago
      So you haven’t even changed the battery? That would be impressive durability.
- leptons 1y ago
  It could also be worth it to keep the same body and upgrade over the years, just to avoid the frustration of re-learning a new laptop keyboard layout.
  - brudgers 1y ago
    Thinkpads have had similar layouts for decades. The keyboard mechanisms have of course changed, but the Emacs friendly dual ctrl and alt symmetric about the space bar have remained. Also being the most Linux friendly laptop also means they have very long update lifespans and being well built tend not to break…though there are plenty of repair parts and spares.
- linsomniac 1y ago
  >in theory, you'd be keeping the same body, while swapping out the mainboard. I love the idea of Framework, but the upgradability seems questionable to me. I base this off my experience with desktops where I've rarely over the decades upgraded more than the hard drive and RAM. When I'm looking at upgrading the motherboard it seems I just end up going all the way and getting a new case/ps/etc at the same time. Maybe that's just me though?
  - CoffeeOnWrite 1y ago
    Because the old machine is still useful intact. I don’t see a difference between laptop and desktop here. I agree I don’t see myself ever swapping in an upgraded motherboard.
    - MetaWhirledPeas 1y ago
      I think there are some important differences. Desktops are a continually evolving space and a hobby all on their own, due to all the different cooling options and aesthetic upgrades available. And since a lot of these involve a case swap you might as well do the whole enchilada. The niche created by Framework, in contrast, is all about reuse. It's just a different game.
    - scheme271 1y ago
      There's kits that let you adapt the old motherboard into a server unit. It's a nice way to get a faster laptop while reusing your old components.
    - kelnos 1y ago
      > Because the old machine is still useful intact I do wonder how many people repurpose old laptops when they get a new one. I have three old laptops, two of which I haven't turned on since I transferred my stuff to the next one. My partner uses the third one to game sometimes, but she's recently gotten a new laptop of her own (her old one is ancient), so I expect she'll stop using that one as well. My current laptop is a Framework 13 (from 2022) that has already seen some upgrades and repairs that wouldn't be possible on any of my old laptops. I expect this chassis and SSD to last quite a long time, with periodic mainboard and RAM upgrades.
- paxys 1y ago
  And it isn't just about upgrading for better specs. I'd wager the majority of people's laptop replacement cycle is triggerd by a single part dying (screen, hard disk, keyboard, hinges, PSU), the device being out of warranty, and the store quoting more for the fix than a new device would cost. Being able to purchase the $50 part online and do the repair yourself will probably save the average person thousands over a 3-5 year span.
  - richardwhiuk 1y ago
    Most laptops I know have lasted 5-7 years and then been replaced. It's totally unclear to me that a single part would have changed any of those replacements. I'm curious if you have a different experience where you ditch a laptop after less than 3 years because a single part has broken as you imply.
    - Tade0 1y ago
      I did that once when I created a pressure mark on the screen via mishandling, bought a replacement only to find that it didn't fit due to some kind of nuance in the model name - never found the correct part. I passed it down to family and bought a new laptop, as my attempt at repairing also damaged the plastic parts which were holding the bezel in place. Overall every laptop I had suffered mechanical damage of some sort and occasionally it was just something I had to live with, as I didn't want to chance e.g. soldering. With my Framework I know any regular repair is a 30min job, as I assembled and disassembled it several times already.
  - dzhiurgis 1y ago
    You can get AppleCare for at least 4 years now, not sure if you can extend beyond that. Also, while I can repair laptops myself, I for sure don't want to. For me cheap storage is the only sell and even that I can mitigate with tiny flush external SSD stick and/or NAS.
- dzhiurgis 1y ago
  Why would I care when I can get at least 4 years worth of AppleCare from Apple?
  - nmridul 1y ago
    Here you can mostly dyi the repair. So you are not stuck waiting for Apple's appointment and repair schedule which would be a week at the minimum that you are grounded. Plus easy upgradeability ..
    - dzhiurgis 1y ago
      I don't really want to DIY, I want quicker turnaround from Apple (which generally can pull off same day repairs if you ask).
AJRF 1y ago
I am happy to pay more money given the companies goals, and that extra money is an investment to me. If I didnt buy it they have one less sale, and I won't have contributed to making the world have more companies like framework. I have hope others are doing the same despite them not being the cheapest. If they stop delivering, ill not buy their next thing, and ill be sad.
econ 1y ago
I think monetary value can be accomplished by streamlining a second hand marketplace. If you've purchased a device the vendor can keep track of what and when. It should be relatively simple to put the known device or part back in the shop. Depending on the part and age they can also buy back and refurbish parts. A standard discount on an upgrade if you return the old part. Etc One could even allow other manufacturers to offer parts and do certification for a fee. It should be possible to push down prices and make update paths more appealing. https://community.frame.work/t/community-market-category/52274/2 https://community.frame.work/t/community-market-category/522...
distances 1y ago
And note that if the price is a pain point, you're free to order the Framework DIY without RAM and NVMe and get them cheaper elsewhere. Should bring it closer to the competition price point.
mmcnl 1y ago
I don't really understand the repairability appeal of the Framework. Hasn't that already been a selling point for the business line laptops of HP, Lenovo and Dell for years? They all offer premium business laptops with removable RAM, SSD and battery and very detailed maintenance guides. Part availability is good too.
- hokumguru 1y ago
  What’s the current procedure for getting HP or Lenovo or Dell to sell you replacement monitor? What about just a chassis if you drop yours and get a dent? Even a spare battery? If you’re not buying one of their premium business laptops, you’re kind of SOL. How about in five years from now when all of that is still fine, but you just want to replace the mainboard. What about when framework comes out with upgrades down the line? The great thing is because they’re so modular you can just buy that and slap it in without having to buy an entirely new machine. That’s the appeal
  - bradfa 1y ago
    Dell Latitude and Lenovo Thinkpad parts are pretty easy to come by on eBay. I’ve bought a handful of different parts from drive caddies, OEM batteries, hinge assemblies, keyboards, and trackpads without much drama. Dell Latitude service manuals are top notch with detailed procedures and diagrams. Dell has a decent track record of maintaining their firmware for a reasonable number of years after release.
    - bigfatkitten 1y ago
      Lenovo parts are easy enough to buy direct these days, at least for recent/current models.
    - hokumguru 1y ago
      eBay is not first party support. And it’s certainly not first party support 5 years later like Framework still offers for the Laptop 13.
- chpatrick 1y ago
rafaelmn 1y ago
Repairability sounds good in theory but in practice outside of two year warranty period I'm fine if I have to replace the device because of failure, but I got 4-5 out of most of my devices. Like my 2018 Intel MBP was the worst laptop in terms of thermals/battery etc. It's still going with a family member I handed it over to. I don't think I've had a laptop die on me in last 12 years of using laptops, I usually keep them around after upgrade or pass them off to family. And the upgradable internals sound like more of a hassle than a benefit - especially since buying a different device will be cheaper and probably a better experience since they don't have to engineer for replaceability. Theoretically you'd get the option to plug in stuff not available in other laptops like strix halo - but then they still don't offer that in laptops. So meh.
- christophilus 1y ago
  Kind of with you on this. I just installed Arch on my wife’s old 2013 MacBook Pro. Works like a charm. My work laptop (Fedora Linux, Dell XPS)is over 5 years old. I haven’t bothered to replace it, but will next year just because. The old one will become a retro gaming device for the kids.
- bloomca 1y ago
  I broke some of my devices, and some have battery become useless, and the price of changing is just not worth it, but overall? They last really long time. I even have some shitty 7 years old Chromebook still working okay passed to a family member, and Macbooks in general last very long. And upgrading laptop components after 5 years just doesn't sound like a good value proposition.
- hippari2 1y ago
  Not sure how your family is using it. But I find that a laptop using as a desktop has a much longer lifespan than a laptop using as intended ( a traveling work station ). Things like moisture, accidental drops, keyboard issue is much more common.
  - rafaelmn 1y ago
    That's true I use laptop in that mode maybe 20% of the time and 80% it's plugged in.
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
kelnos 1y ago
I guess Framework is maybe too new for us to be able to come up with figures here, but monetary value is hard to measure for a product where the intention is you don't ever fully replace it. Sure, I might have spent a few hundred more on my Framework 13 back in 2022, but if I'd bought a Dell XPS 13 instead, I probably would be fully replacing it with a new machine in 2026 or 2027. But with the Framework, I'll instead only buy a new mainboard and RAM. My "next laptop" will cost ~$1000 for the same specs as something that would cost ~$2000. So sure, it's going to take me a bit longer to realize the savings, but there still will be savings, and I appreciate the sustainability aspects too.
- locusm 1y ago
  Exactly my thinking too with my FW16.
brudgers 1y ago
It has value has a vote with your wallet for sustainable, repairable products. The author of the fine article’s strategy of used Thinkpads is more sustainable because reuse is among the most sustainable practices and there is an abundance of Thinkpad repair parts and spares machines. Of course, Thinkpads are not terribly upgradable. But upgrading is often the opposite of sustainable…in many cases CPU’s, etc. are fast-fashionesque.
dtnewman 1y ago
I actually get a lot of value out of the repairability. It lets me buy a cheaper computer upfront without having to worry about whether i can upgrade later on. How many times have I thought, maybe i should get 2tb just in case, and then end up using 500gb. With framework, I'll buy the 1TB and the cost to upgrade is very low if I ever need to. Same thing with memory. Maybe i need 16, maybe 32, maybe 64. I tend to buy more than i need out of fear. I just don't have that fear with framework. Oh, and don't even get me started with repairs. If my screen breaks, i know the time to fix is however long their shipping lead time is, since the repair itself will take me 15 minutes. In general, i think that value depends on how you see a computer. $1000-2000 is a lot to spend on something you use for fun. It's really not much to spend on something you use every day for work. And it's even less if your company is paying.
- echelon 1y ago
  I want a fully clear case, but apparently that's too brittle and isn't possible? This is what the Framework people say. They have keyboards like this, but won't make a full shell in this style. I'd kill for a fully transparent phone or laptop shell. I'd pay $1000 more for this aesthetic. Double if it's in the florescent neon colors of 90's /00's Nintendo / Apple designs. This: https://imgur.com/a/DedpbHQ https://imgur.com/a/DedpbHQ
- demosthanos 1y ago
  The repair-ability has been a huge thing for me as a father of young kids. I've only had to do it once when a toddler jumped on the laptop screen, but it ended up being a fairly cheap repair instead of what had hitherto been a full laptop replacement.
strken 1y ago
There's a frustrating tendency for reviewers to miss, or just ignore, the point of a product in their review. I wish they'd give a rating based on how well it fits into its niche, not how well it fits the needs of the average reader. As an example, I recently bought a car, and went with a small crossover SUV because I wanted something that could handle light off-road duties on the weekend. One of the reviews deducted points because the car's clearance was too high and it meant the car didn't hug the road. The clearance is the point of that car. The manufacturer literally took one of their other models, raised it an extra 9cm, and stuck some minor cosmetic bits on. In the same way, nobody buys a Framework laptop because it's competitive on price. This review does acknowledge that, sort of, but I think it discounts that someone might not be able to afford a Laptop 13 but might still pay a small premium for a Laptop 12 because they like the ethos or they benefit from the customisable design. Is that group a bit enough niche for profitability? I'm not sure, but I think the review should either directly ask that question or put it to the side.
agarren 1y ago
I’d add that the potential to support other architectures is also a benefit. At the moment the framework 13 chassis supports risc-v [0] [1] with rumors about an arm variant. Beyond practical repairability and sustainability, I appreciate the possibility of swapping out a mainboard for another with a completely different arch [0] https://frame.work/products/deep-computing-risc-v-mainboard https://frame.work/products/deep-computing-risc-v-mainboard [1] https://store.deepcomputing.io/products/dc-roma-risc-v-mainboard-for-framework-laptop-13 https://store.deepcomputing.io/products/dc-roma-risc-v-mainb...
mbreese 1y ago
One of the versions that the author compares the Framework 12 to with respect to value is the Framework 13… so, it’s not like they are ignoring the Framework repairable design philosophy. Here is the “ugly” part of the Ars summary (as in good/bad/ugly): It's just too expensive for what it is. It looks and feels like a lower-cost laptop, but without a dramatically lower price than the nicer, faster Framework 13.
sandreas 1y ago
The monetary value comes in the long term (5+ years). Other Brands Notebooks are not upgradable, not repairable and the most frustrating part are the batteries - which framework offers an original replacement for. "Modern" office notebooks don't have to be that powerful. I'm still using a T480s which will only render unusable as soon as the battery dies with no <100 bucks replacement parts available. I think buying a framework is an investment for people planning to keep the device for 5+ years and/or want to support the right to repair movement. I'm really suprised and impressed they managed to ship such a great device and keep their promises for so long even if it is not the besteht bang for the buck (short term). Keep up the great work.
sillystuff 1y ago
I really liked the idea of Framework making inter-changeable parts available for their laptops-- allowing the purchaser to keep the laptop running / upgrading as long as they wish. I also liked not having to buy parts with the laptop that I will be replacing anyway (SSD, RAM). Unfortunately, Framework now includes wifi even with the bare bones laptops, so some e-waste from replacing that. But, the premium paid is high. And, their warranty support was, in my opinion, not a good experience. The expansion cards, which are just USB dongles internal to the computer, are gimmicky and waste space that could be used for something useful, like a slot for a second SSD, or larger battery. I ended up sending back the Framework 13, I recently purchased, because of the warranty support experience for a mechanical issue with a single expansion card (usb dongle). Framework support had me jump through hoops for a week, repeating tests, asking me to answer the same questions again and again, and finally, "now do everything again and make a video and upload it to youtube" [actual request from Framework]. All for a part that retails for $9. The experience spooked me, and I sent back the laptop for a refund during the 30 day return window. The Dell I replaced it with has an inferior screen*, a slightly inferior keyboard, vastly inferior CPU cooling (the Dell thermal throttles under heavy load), but Dell was half the price, and it arrived at my door 8 hours after I ordered it. And, unless things have changed, Dell warranty support was always excellent. Hopefully Framework fixes the issues with their warranty support process. I hope they succeed. * Dim screen on Dell mitigated by using the money I saved on the laptop price, to buy a portable 13" e-ink monitor which is vastly superior to the Framework display when working outdoors.

m463 1y ago

this same lack of critical thinking is why you can't search for decently-rated dumb tvs, because they lose points for not being smart. sigh.

atrus 1y ago

I think the repairabilty makes it hard to even compare monetary value, since in theory, you'd be keeping the same body, while swapping out the mainboard. Is it cheaper to buy two other laptops compared to one laptop + mainboard? That's what, a 3-5 year timeline? Who knows what prices/capabilities/etc will be like then.

nucleardog 1y ago
Yeah, I personally take that into account however I can see why someone may not. Framework has released fairly consistent upgrades for the Framework 13, but there's no guarantee that they will continue to do so, will release upgrades for the Framework 16, etc. I think in a few years when they've been in business for closer to a decade than not and released updates across the whole product line, it'd be pretty hard for anyone to make an argument that that _shouldn't_ be factored in.
benrutter 1y ago
Yeah, this is my experience with a Fairphone 4. It seemed pricey initially, but I have saved sooo much by being able to carry out simple repairs.
- paldepind2 1y ago
  How often do you break your phone that you've save sooo much? Mine is at least 2 years older (I got it 2 years before the Fairphone 4 was released) and I've spend 0$ dollars repairing it.
  - benrutter 1y ago
    Embarrasingly often! Things I've done specifically: - Getting cement in the charger port - Dropping the phone on its screen breaking it With some phones both of those could be full replacements.
  - XorNot 1y ago
    In a laptop context the advent of soldered on RAM and SSDs has made this a more significant issue though. That 1TB I thought was enough might not be, and suddenly I need to buy a whole new machine to upgrade.
    - christophilus 1y ago
      Are the SSDs often soldered? I thought that was only the RAM.
      - kelnos 1y ago
        Depends on the brand/model, of course, but I think for a 13"-sized laptop, it's pretty common to solder in the storage as well.
  - jijijijij 1y ago
    So you haven’t even changed the battery? That would be impressive durability.
leptons 1y ago
It could also be worth it to keep the same body and upgrade over the years, just to avoid the frustration of re-learning a new laptop keyboard layout.
- brudgers 1y ago
  Thinkpads have had similar layouts for decades. The keyboard mechanisms have of course changed, but the Emacs friendly dual ctrl and alt symmetric about the space bar have remained. Also being the most Linux friendly laptop also means they have very long update lifespans and being well built tend not to break…though there are plenty of repair parts and spares.
linsomniac 1y ago
>in theory, you'd be keeping the same body, while swapping out the mainboard. I love the idea of Framework, but the upgradability seems questionable to me. I base this off my experience with desktops where I've rarely over the decades upgraded more than the hard drive and RAM. When I'm looking at upgrading the motherboard it seems I just end up going all the way and getting a new case/ps/etc at the same time. Maybe that's just me though?
- CoffeeOnWrite 1y ago
  Because the old machine is still useful intact. I don’t see a difference between laptop and desktop here. I agree I don’t see myself ever swapping in an upgraded motherboard.
  - MetaWhirledPeas 1y ago
    I think there are some important differences. Desktops are a continually evolving space and a hobby all on their own, due to all the different cooling options and aesthetic upgrades available. And since a lot of these involve a case swap you might as well do the whole enchilada. The niche created by Framework, in contrast, is all about reuse. It's just a different game.
  - scheme271 1y ago
    There's kits that let you adapt the old motherboard into a server unit. It's a nice way to get a faster laptop while reusing your old components.
  - kelnos 1y ago
    > Because the old machine is still useful intact I do wonder how many people repurpose old laptops when they get a new one. I have three old laptops, two of which I haven't turned on since I transferred my stuff to the next one. My partner uses the third one to game sometimes, but she's recently gotten a new laptop of her own (her old one is ancient), so I expect she'll stop using that one as well. My current laptop is a Framework 13 (from 2022) that has already seen some upgrades and repairs that wouldn't be possible on any of my old laptops. I expect this chassis and SSD to last quite a long time, with periodic mainboard and RAM upgrades.
paxys 1y ago
And it isn't just about upgrading for better specs. I'd wager the majority of people's laptop replacement cycle is triggerd by a single part dying (screen, hard disk, keyboard, hinges, PSU), the device being out of warranty, and the store quoting more for the fix than a new device would cost. Being able to purchase the $50 part online and do the repair yourself will probably save the average person thousands over a 3-5 year span.
- richardwhiuk 1y ago
  Most laptops I know have lasted 5-7 years and then been replaced. It's totally unclear to me that a single part would have changed any of those replacements. I'm curious if you have a different experience where you ditch a laptop after less than 3 years because a single part has broken as you imply.
  - Tade0 1y ago
    I did that once when I created a pressure mark on the screen via mishandling, bought a replacement only to find that it didn't fit due to some kind of nuance in the model name - never found the correct part. I passed it down to family and bought a new laptop, as my attempt at repairing also damaged the plastic parts which were holding the bezel in place. Overall every laptop I had suffered mechanical damage of some sort and occasionally it was just something I had to live with, as I didn't want to chance e.g. soldering. With my Framework I know any regular repair is a 30min job, as I assembled and disassembled it several times already.
- dzhiurgis 1y ago
  You can get AppleCare for at least 4 years now, not sure if you can extend beyond that. Also, while I can repair laptops myself, I for sure don't want to. For me cheap storage is the only sell and even that I can mitigate with tiny flush external SSD stick and/or NAS.
dzhiurgis 1y ago
Why would I care when I can get at least 4 years worth of AppleCare from Apple?
- nmridul 1y ago
  Here you can mostly dyi the repair. So you are not stuck waiting for Apple's appointment and repair schedule which would be a week at the minimum that you are grounded. Plus easy upgradeability ..
  - dzhiurgis 1y ago
    I don't really want to DIY, I want quicker turnaround from Apple (which generally can pull off same day repairs if you ask).

AJRF 1y ago

I am happy to pay more money given the companies goals, and that extra money is an investment to me. If I didnt buy it they have one less sale, and I won't have contributed to making the world have more companies like framework. I have hope others are doing the same despite them not being the cheapest. If they stop delivering, ill not buy their next thing, and ill be sad.

econ 1y ago

I think monetary value can be accomplished by streamlining a second hand marketplace. If you've purchased a device the vendor can keep track of what and when. It should be relatively simple to put the known device or part back in the shop. Depending on the part and age they can also buy back and refurbish parts. A standard discount on an upgrade if you return the old part. Etc One could even allow other manufacturers to offer parts and do certification for a fee. It should be possible to push down prices and make update paths more appealing. https://community.frame.work/t/community-market-category/52274/2 https://community.frame.work/t/community-market-category/522...

distances 1y ago

And note that if the price is a pain point, you're free to order the Framework DIY without RAM and NVMe and get them cheaper elsewhere. Should bring it closer to the competition price point.

mmcnl 1y ago

I don't really understand the repairability appeal of the Framework. Hasn't that already been a selling point for the business line laptops of HP, Lenovo and Dell for years? They all offer premium business laptops with removable RAM, SSD and battery and very detailed maintenance guides. Part availability is good too.

hokumguru 1y ago
What’s the current procedure for getting HP or Lenovo or Dell to sell you replacement monitor? What about just a chassis if you drop yours and get a dent? Even a spare battery? If you’re not buying one of their premium business laptops, you’re kind of SOL. How about in five years from now when all of that is still fine, but you just want to replace the mainboard. What about when framework comes out with upgrades down the line? The great thing is because they’re so modular you can just buy that and slap it in without having to buy an entirely new machine. That’s the appeal
- bradfa 1y ago
  Dell Latitude and Lenovo Thinkpad parts are pretty easy to come by on eBay. I’ve bought a handful of different parts from drive caddies, OEM batteries, hinge assemblies, keyboards, and trackpads without much drama. Dell Latitude service manuals are top notch with detailed procedures and diagrams. Dell has a decent track record of maintaining their firmware for a reasonable number of years after release.
  - bigfatkitten 1y ago
    Lenovo parts are easy enough to buy direct these days, at least for recent/current models.
  - hokumguru 1y ago
    eBay is not first party support. And it’s certainly not first party support 5 years later like Framework still offers for the Laptop 13.
chpatrick 1y ago

rafaelmn 1y ago

Repairability sounds good in theory but in practice outside of two year warranty period I'm fine if I have to replace the device because of failure, but I got 4-5 out of most of my devices. Like my 2018 Intel MBP was the worst laptop in terms of thermals/battery etc. It's still going with a family member I handed it over to. I don't think I've had a laptop die on me in last 12 years of using laptops, I usually keep them around after upgrade or pass them off to family. And the upgradable internals sound like more of a hassle than a benefit - especially since buying a different device will be cheaper and probably a better experience since they don't have to engineer for replaceability. Theoretically you'd get the option to plug in stuff not available in other laptops like strix halo - but then they still don't offer that in laptops. So meh.

christophilus 1y ago
Kind of with you on this. I just installed Arch on my wife’s old 2013 MacBook Pro. Works like a charm. My work laptop (Fedora Linux, Dell XPS)is over 5 years old. I haven’t bothered to replace it, but will next year just because. The old one will become a retro gaming device for the kids.
bloomca 1y ago
I broke some of my devices, and some have battery become useless, and the price of changing is just not worth it, but overall? They last really long time. I even have some shitty 7 years old Chromebook still working okay passed to a family member, and Macbooks in general last very long. And upgrading laptop components after 5 years just doesn't sound like a good value proposition.
hippari2 1y ago
Not sure how your family is using it. But I find that a laptop using as a desktop has a much longer lifespan than a laptop using as intended ( a traveling work station ). Things like moisture, accidental drops, keyboard issue is much more common.
- rafaelmn 1y ago
  That's true I use laptop in that mode maybe 20% of the time and 80% it's plugged in.

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

kelnos 1y ago

I guess Framework is maybe too new for us to be able to come up with figures here, but monetary value is hard to measure for a product where the intention is you don't ever fully replace it. Sure, I might have spent a few hundred more on my Framework 13 back in 2022, but if I'd bought a Dell XPS 13 instead, I probably would be fully replacing it with a new machine in 2026 or 2027. But with the Framework, I'll instead only buy a new mainboard and RAM. My "next laptop" will cost ~$1000 for the same specs as something that would cost ~$2000. So sure, it's going to take me a bit longer to realize the savings, but there still will be savings, and I appreciate the sustainability aspects too.

locusm 1y ago
Exactly my thinking too with my FW16.

brudgers 1y ago

It has value has a vote with your wallet for sustainable, repairable products. The author of the fine article’s strategy of used Thinkpads is more sustainable because reuse is among the most sustainable practices and there is an abundance of Thinkpad repair parts and spares machines. Of course, Thinkpads are not terribly upgradable. But upgrading is often the opposite of sustainable…in many cases CPU’s, etc. are fast-fashionesque.

dtnewman 1y ago

I actually get a lot of value out of the repairability. It lets me buy a cheaper computer upfront without having to worry about whether i can upgrade later on. How many times have I thought, maybe i should get 2tb just in case, and then end up using 500gb. With framework, I'll buy the 1TB and the cost to upgrade is very low if I ever need to. Same thing with memory. Maybe i need 16, maybe 32, maybe 64. I tend to buy more than i need out of fear. I just don't have that fear with framework. Oh, and don't even get me started with repairs. If my screen breaks, i know the time to fix is however long their shipping lead time is, since the repair itself will take me 15 minutes. In general, i think that value depends on how you see a computer. $1000-2000 is a lot to spend on something you use for fun. It's really not much to spend on something you use every day for work. And it's even less if your company is paying.

echelon 1y ago
I want a fully clear case, but apparently that's too brittle and isn't possible? This is what the Framework people say. They have keyboards like this, but won't make a full shell in this style. I'd kill for a fully transparent phone or laptop shell. I'd pay $1000 more for this aesthetic. Double if it's in the florescent neon colors of 90's /00's Nintendo / Apple designs. This: https://imgur.com/a/DedpbHQ https://imgur.com/a/DedpbHQ
demosthanos 1y ago
The repair-ability has been a huge thing for me as a father of young kids. I've only had to do it once when a toddler jumped on the laptop screen, but it ended up being a fairly cheap repair instead of what had hitherto been a full laptop replacement.

strken 1y ago

There's a frustrating tendency for reviewers to miss, or just ignore, the point of a product in their review. I wish they'd give a rating based on how well it fits into its niche, not how well it fits the needs of the average reader. As an example, I recently bought a car, and went with a small crossover SUV because I wanted something that could handle light off-road duties on the weekend. One of the reviews deducted points because the car's clearance was too high and it meant the car didn't hug the road. The clearance is the point of that car. The manufacturer literally took one of their other models, raised it an extra 9cm, and stuck some minor cosmetic bits on. In the same way, nobody buys a Framework laptop because it's competitive on price. This review does acknowledge that, sort of, but I think it discounts that someone might not be able to afford a Laptop 13 but might still pay a small premium for a Laptop 12 because they like the ethos or they benefit from the customisable design. Is that group a bit enough niche for profitability? I'm not sure, but I think the review should either directly ask that question or put it to the side.

agarren 1y ago

I’d add that the potential to support other architectures is also a benefit. At the moment the framework 13 chassis supports risc-v [0] [1] with rumors about an arm variant. Beyond practical repairability and sustainability, I appreciate the possibility of swapping out a mainboard for another with a completely different arch [0] https://frame.work/products/deep-computing-risc-v-mainboard https://frame.work/products/deep-computing-risc-v-mainboard [1] https://store.deepcomputing.io/products/dc-roma-risc-v-mainboard-for-framework-laptop-13 https://store.deepcomputing.io/products/dc-roma-risc-v-mainb...

mbreese 1y ago

One of the versions that the author compares the Framework 12 to with respect to value is the Framework 13… so, it’s not like they are ignoring the Framework repairable design philosophy. Here is the “ugly” part of the Ars summary (as in good/bad/ugly): It's just too expensive for what it is. It looks and feels like a lower-cost laptop, but without a dramatically lower price than the nicer, faster Framework 13.

sandreas 1y ago

The monetary value comes in the long term (5+ years). Other Brands Notebooks are not upgradable, not repairable and the most frustrating part are the batteries - which framework offers an original replacement for. "Modern" office notebooks don't have to be that powerful. I'm still using a T480s which will only render unusable as soon as the battery dies with no <100 bucks replacement parts available. I think buying a framework is an investment for people planning to keep the device for 5+ years and/or want to support the right to repair movement. I'm really suprised and impressed they managed to ship such a great device and keep their promises for so long even if it is not the besteht bang for the buck (short term). Keep up the great work.

sillystuff 1y ago

I really liked the idea of Framework making inter-changeable parts available for their laptops-- allowing the purchaser to keep the laptop running / upgrading as long as they wish. I also liked not having to buy parts with the laptop that I will be replacing anyway (SSD, RAM). Unfortunately, Framework now includes wifi even with the bare bones laptops, so some e-waste from replacing that. But, the premium paid is high. And, their warranty support was, in my opinion, not a good experience. The expansion cards, which are just USB dongles internal to the computer, are gimmicky and waste space that could be used for something useful, like a slot for a second SSD, or larger battery. I ended up sending back the Framework 13, I recently purchased, because of the warranty support experience for a mechanical issue with a single expansion card (usb dongle). Framework support had me jump through hoops for a week, repeating tests, asking me to answer the same questions again and again, and finally, "now do everything again and make a video and upload it to youtube" [actual request from Framework]. All for a part that retails for $9. The experience spooked me, and I sent back the laptop for a refund during the 30 day return window. The Dell I replaced it with has an inferior screen*, a slightly inferior keyboard, vastly inferior CPU cooling (the Dell thermal throttles under heavy load), but Dell was half the price, and it arrived at my door 8 hours after I ordered it. And, unless things have changed, Dell warranty support was always excellent. Hopefully Framework fixes the issues with their warranty support process. I hope they succeed. * Dim screen on Dell mitigated by using the money I saved on the laptop price, to buy a portable 13" e-ink monitor which is vastly superior to the Framework display when working outdoors.