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I like the spirit of it, but the execution isn't what I'm looking for. With this being a hosted solution, it makes me dependent on another SaaS tool for little

I like the spirit of it, but the execution isn't what I'm looking for. With this being a hosted solution, it makes me dependent on another SaaS tool for little personal projects. If it's a little counter needed for an afternoon, that's not such a big deal. However, if I'm looking for a scrappy little app I may use for years, this is a problem. Plus, no matter how low the learning curve gets, it will still exist, so I want something that I can use for the long term for things like this. This makes my mind go to approachable and easy languages that allow the user to easily throw a GUI on it. I don't think code needs to be completely abstracted away, just made easy and tailored to what people will do. Look at how many people on MySpace were able to learn some CSS. Maybe they copy and paste someone else's stuff at first, but that's the foot in the door before they eventually look at how to tweak it. I typically end up using basic HTML/CSS/JS for stuff like this today. If I really need backend code, I'll use basic PHP (no frameworks or anything). But this ties me to a browser, which I'm not always a fan of. Some of these fairly scrappy little projects at work (done in the browser like this, and with AutoHotKey) have been going for 10+ years now, with very little maintenance. The AHK script I haven't touched in probably 8 years, since I moved to macOS at work, yet people still use it countless times per day. If AHK decides to stop operating, it's no big deal, the code that exists will still run. The same can't be said for these SaaS solution to this problem. People looking for scrappy solutions aren't looking to remake their solution every time a founder decides to move on to something else more interesting or profitable.

bandoti 1y ago
It seems the way to go would be to open source the SaaS code to ensure that longevity. The folks at Penpot have a good thing going with that—most people will use the SaaS offering but it’s available for self-hosting. One of the difficulties of course is notarizing/signing the apps and so-forth. Perhaps some Web3 solutions could help as well. OR, another option would be like what PICO-8 does (or flash I guess)—release the runtime and distribute the “carts” or apps. :) Still, it’s pretty complex creating a trusted distribution network outside of SaaS. Definitely could work though it’s been done before! [1]: https://penpot.app/ https://penpot.app/ [2]: https://www.lexaloffle.com/pico-8.php https://www.lexaloffle.com/pico-8.php
- al_borland 1y ago
  I was also thinking back to when I used TiddlyWiki almost 20 years ago. If this tool is effectively just HTML, CSS, and Javascript... could they bake it all into a single HTML file. Download a template, design your app offline, and save your work to a file that can run on its own, offline, in a browser window. Maybe the about of JS they need to bake in, or images, would make that impractical. Of course, as it stands, the examples were so simplistic that they could easily be vibe coded. I just tried it with the attendance counter and ChatGPT gave me that's only 50 lines. I'm sure I could make that much shorter doing it manually. Granted, a project like this has to start somewhere, but as it stands it's adding a lot of infrastructure without adding enough value to make it worth it, when AI is pretty good at these really basic things, like "give me a text box with a button to increment it".
  - II2II 1y ago
    Vibe coding may get the job done, but it isn't going to be as fun for someone who wants to write a little app for a friend. Also, chances are that the generated code is going to be less friendly for a novice to edit should the want/need to make changes.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
slightwinder 1y ago
This looks like something that should be done like a TiddlyWiki. A TiddlyWiki is a whole Webapplication in a single HTML-File. Traditionally, when you change something, you just save the HTML-File and it self-replicates with the new data. There are now also TiddlyWikis which can save to backends and probably some other ways. Building a whole platform around self-replicating HTML-files with optional backend-access seems to be the more reliable solution for small personalized stuff. At least it has a strong resilience.
- panphora 1y ago
  I'm building a self-modifying HTML runtime inspired by TiddlyWiki [0]. It lets you build "HTML apps" in a single file with plain CSS/JS. These apps are shareable and hostable, but you can also download and use them locally as offline apps [1]. The cool thing is each HTML file is able to modify/overwrite itself, so users can use the app's own UI to modify it (e.g. a dashboard where users can add new fields by clicking a button to clone a DOM node, everything's persisted). The key insight: collapsing the UI/state/logic layers into a single self-contained HTML file eliminates entire categories of complexity - no build steps, no deployment, no state synchronization. Everything you need is just right there. [0] https://hyperclay.com/ https://hyperclay.com/ [1] https://hyperclay.com/hyperclay-local https://hyperclay.com/hyperclay-local
  - owebmaster 1y ago
    Hyperclay is quite interesting, well done! But to use it we need to install an app? I think the UX of tiddlywiki that just work is better
    - panphora 1y ago
      No app installation needed, Hyperclay files are just HTML files, so they work like TiddlyWiki in that regard. You can download them and use them locally with any text editor, or even implement TiddlyWiki's saving mechanism if you prefer that workflow. The key difference is when you want to share your creation on the web. With TiddlyWiki, you typically share a read-only version, requiring visitors to download and save their own copy. With Hyperclay, you can host that same HTML file on any server and live-edit it directly in your browser (if you're the owner). When people clone it, their clone is shareable and available on the web. So you get the best of both worlds: the simplicity of a single HTML file that "just works" offline, plus the ability to publish it as a living document that you can edit directly in the browser. Think of it as TiddlyWiki's philosophy extended to the shared web. Same single-file simplicity, but now your changes can be seen by others.
belmarca 1y ago
You should check out https://codeboot.org https://codeboot.org . It's a fully client-side Python IDE with single-stepping, a virtual (non-hierarchical) filesystem, an FFI to call JS code and a few other things (see the docs). Sharing apps in CodeBoot is trivial: right-click the "play" button and copy a shareable URL. I have helped people solve data wrangling problems using CodeBoot and they now have their little app bookmarked. It works really well. I could go on for a while. AMA if you're interested. We're actively working on it and some great new features are on the way!
- jorvi 1y ago
  Can I just say I adore the absolute utility of the UX and UI? No welcome screen, just dropped straight into the main interface which itself has no excess buttons or styling wasted on it. To me this is beautiful.
  - belmarca 1y ago
    Really glad you appreciate! We use it to teach introductory programing courses and the simplistic UI is purpose-built for that use-case. It really is a joy to program with, but we're struggling a bit to communicate everything it can do. We are working hard on that front and should have a landing page and better explanatory material soon. We're very interested in feedback. If anybody wants to learn more, just contact me through the email in my profile. Cheers!
    - jorvi 1y ago
      Instead of a landing page, may I suggest a '?' button, or at least putting the landing page on https://codeboot.org/something https://codeboot.org/something and redirecting from referrers but not direct loads? Browsers are getting more and more aggressive about deleting cookies / making cookies ephemeral, and nothing is more annoying that dealing with one or multiple pop-ups on each page visit. For an example of how bad it can get, load LMarena in a private window. Cookie pop-up, agree > type something, press enter > ToS pop-up, agree > press enter again > processing > answer > type somethi- verify Cloudflare, agree > type something Other than that I don't have much comments yet except that it seems a nice product!
nico 1y ago
> I typically end up using basic HTML/CSS/JS for stuff like this today Depending on your tolerance for basic ai coding, you might enjoy openjam.ai You can build silly stuff like this (better seen on desktop): * https://openjam.ai/lonely_ant_702/bajbin4neo https://openjam.ai/lonely_ant_702/bajbin4neo * https://openjam.ai/stupid_coral_852/qg8yembjg5 https://openjam.ai/stupid_coral_852/qg8yembjg5 * https://openjam.ai/stupid_coral_852/y2hj69iqvo https://openjam.ai/stupid_coral_852/y2hj69iqvo
edmundsauto 1y ago
I use Cursor and vibe code this stuff, it works great! I just built a flight tracker (I live in a flight path) that uses a SDR to receive ADS-B info from overhead flights and enrich it with flight info from the local airport, then display in a train station style flippy board. My wife loves knowing where the flights are going and so I display on our magic mirror I know almost nothing about the underlying technologies, can barely code JS for the front end. But after about 10 hours of coding, I’ve got a very neat little app - it’s something that would have taken me 2 months then become abandonware after I got frustrated. This was such a positive experience with vibe coding that it restored my love for code. Resulting quality seems pretty decent - maybe 1200 sLOC with good logging, performance, and what I would say is decent pro-am code quality. (IE above the median quality for typical commercial code, I’d bet)
jrcplus 1y ago
Scrappy co-creator here. I fully agree that software longevity is important. We designed Scrappy with a local-first architecture, so we have no traditional backend. Our only cloud dependency is a lightweight sync server. (We hurriedly added an FAQ with some more technical details after we discovered that this blew up on HN.) I believe this is an important point of distinction, both technically and financially, from most low-code/no-code tools which are SaaS'es. One idea we had early on is the ability to save scrapps as single-page self-contained HTML files. We experimented with this but the functionality isn't currently exposed.
- al_borland 1y ago
  Being able to download a self-contained html file would be great. Not only for longevity, but also for situations where internet access may be questionable.

bandoti 1y ago

It seems the way to go would be to open source the SaaS code to ensure that longevity. The folks at Penpot have a good thing going with that—most people will use the SaaS offering but it’s available for self-hosting. One of the difficulties of course is notarizing/signing the apps and so-forth. Perhaps some Web3 solutions could help as well. OR, another option would be like what PICO-8 does (or flash I guess)—release the runtime and distribute the “carts” or apps. :) Still, it’s pretty complex creating a trusted distribution network outside of SaaS. Definitely could work though it’s been done before! [1]: https://penpot.app/ https://penpot.app/ [2]: https://www.lexaloffle.com/pico-8.php https://www.lexaloffle.com/pico-8.php

al_borland 1y ago
I was also thinking back to when I used TiddlyWiki almost 20 years ago. If this tool is effectively just HTML, CSS, and Javascript... could they bake it all into a single HTML file. Download a template, design your app offline, and save your work to a file that can run on its own, offline, in a browser window. Maybe the about of JS they need to bake in, or images, would make that impractical. Of course, as it stands, the examples were so simplistic that they could easily be vibe coded. I just tried it with the attendance counter and ChatGPT gave me that's only 50 lines. I'm sure I could make that much shorter doing it manually. Granted, a project like this has to start somewhere, but as it stands it's adding a lot of infrastructure without adding enough value to make it worth it, when AI is pretty good at these really basic things, like "give me a text box with a button to increment it".
- II2II 1y ago
  Vibe coding may get the job done, but it isn't going to be as fun for someone who wants to write a little app for a friend. Also, chances are that the generated code is going to be less friendly for a novice to edit should the want/need to make changes.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]

slightwinder 1y ago

This looks like something that should be done like a TiddlyWiki. A TiddlyWiki is a whole Webapplication in a single HTML-File. Traditionally, when you change something, you just save the HTML-File and it self-replicates with the new data. There are now also TiddlyWikis which can save to backends and probably some other ways. Building a whole platform around self-replicating HTML-files with optional backend-access seems to be the more reliable solution for small personalized stuff. At least it has a strong resilience.

panphora 1y ago
I'm building a self-modifying HTML runtime inspired by TiddlyWiki [0]. It lets you build "HTML apps" in a single file with plain CSS/JS. These apps are shareable and hostable, but you can also download and use them locally as offline apps [1]. The cool thing is each HTML file is able to modify/overwrite itself, so users can use the app's own UI to modify it (e.g. a dashboard where users can add new fields by clicking a button to clone a DOM node, everything's persisted). The key insight: collapsing the UI/state/logic layers into a single self-contained HTML file eliminates entire categories of complexity - no build steps, no deployment, no state synchronization. Everything you need is just right there. [0] https://hyperclay.com/ https://hyperclay.com/ [1] https://hyperclay.com/hyperclay-local https://hyperclay.com/hyperclay-local
- owebmaster 1y ago
  Hyperclay is quite interesting, well done! But to use it we need to install an app? I think the UX of tiddlywiki that just work is better
  - panphora 1y ago
    No app installation needed, Hyperclay files are just HTML files, so they work like TiddlyWiki in that regard. You can download them and use them locally with any text editor, or even implement TiddlyWiki's saving mechanism if you prefer that workflow. The key difference is when you want to share your creation on the web. With TiddlyWiki, you typically share a read-only version, requiring visitors to download and save their own copy. With Hyperclay, you can host that same HTML file on any server and live-edit it directly in your browser (if you're the owner). When people clone it, their clone is shareable and available on the web. So you get the best of both worlds: the simplicity of a single HTML file that "just works" offline, plus the ability to publish it as a living document that you can edit directly in the browser. Think of it as TiddlyWiki's philosophy extended to the shared web. Same single-file simplicity, but now your changes can be seen by others.

belmarca 1y ago

You should check out https://codeboot.org https://codeboot.org . It's a fully client-side Python IDE with single-stepping, a virtual (non-hierarchical) filesystem, an FFI to call JS code and a few other things (see the docs). Sharing apps in CodeBoot is trivial: right-click the "play" button and copy a shareable URL. I have helped people solve data wrangling problems using CodeBoot and they now have their little app bookmarked. It works really well. I could go on for a while. AMA if you're interested. We're actively working on it and some great new features are on the way!

jorvi 1y ago
Can I just say I adore the absolute utility of the UX and UI? No welcome screen, just dropped straight into the main interface which itself has no excess buttons or styling wasted on it. To me this is beautiful.
- belmarca 1y ago
  Really glad you appreciate! We use it to teach introductory programing courses and the simplistic UI is purpose-built for that use-case. It really is a joy to program with, but we're struggling a bit to communicate everything it can do. We are working hard on that front and should have a landing page and better explanatory material soon. We're very interested in feedback. If anybody wants to learn more, just contact me through the email in my profile. Cheers!
  - jorvi 1y ago
    Instead of a landing page, may I suggest a '?' button, or at least putting the landing page on https://codeboot.org/something https://codeboot.org/something and redirecting from referrers but not direct loads? Browsers are getting more and more aggressive about deleting cookies / making cookies ephemeral, and nothing is more annoying that dealing with one or multiple pop-ups on each page visit. For an example of how bad it can get, load LMarena in a private window. Cookie pop-up, agree > type something, press enter > ToS pop-up, agree > press enter again > processing > answer > type somethi- verify Cloudflare, agree > type something Other than that I don't have much comments yet except that it seems a nice product!

nico 1y ago

> I typically end up using basic HTML/CSS/JS for stuff like this today Depending on your tolerance for basic ai coding, you might enjoy openjam.ai You can build silly stuff like this (better seen on desktop): * https://openjam.ai/lonely_ant_702/bajbin4neo https://openjam.ai/lonely_ant_702/bajbin4neo * https://openjam.ai/stupid_coral_852/qg8yembjg5 https://openjam.ai/stupid_coral_852/qg8yembjg5 * https://openjam.ai/stupid_coral_852/y2hj69iqvo https://openjam.ai/stupid_coral_852/y2hj69iqvo

edmundsauto 1y ago

I use Cursor and vibe code this stuff, it works great! I just built a flight tracker (I live in a flight path) that uses a SDR to receive ADS-B info from overhead flights and enrich it with flight info from the local airport, then display in a train station style flippy board. My wife loves knowing where the flights are going and so I display on our magic mirror I know almost nothing about the underlying technologies, can barely code JS for the front end. But after about 10 hours of coding, I’ve got a very neat little app - it’s something that would have taken me 2 months then become abandonware after I got frustrated. This was such a positive experience with vibe coding that it restored my love for code. Resulting quality seems pretty decent - maybe 1200 sLOC with good logging, performance, and what I would say is decent pro-am code quality. (IE above the median quality for typical commercial code, I’d bet)

jrcplus 1y ago

Scrappy co-creator here. I fully agree that software longevity is important. We designed Scrappy with a local-first architecture, so we have no traditional backend. Our only cloud dependency is a lightweight sync server. (We hurriedly added an FAQ with some more technical details after we discovered that this blew up on HN.) I believe this is an important point of distinction, both technically and financially, from most low-code/no-code tools which are SaaS'es. One idea we had early on is the ability to save scrapps as single-page self-contained HTML files. We experimented with this but the functionality isn't currently exposed.

al_borland 1y ago
Being able to download a self-contained html file would be great. Not only for longevity, but also for situations where internet access may be questionable.