8 ms·

Apple has done a good job of persuading people that this case was about protecting innovation and about Samsung's specific alleged infringements of their patent

Apple has done a good job of persuading people that this case was about protecting innovation and about Samsung's specific alleged infringements of their patents. But this is nothing more than a smoke screen for their ongoing proxy war on Android. They've refused to compete with Android on price, features, and form factors and the market has punished them for it. Expect more attacks on Android seeking ridiculous damages for non-essential details of mobile UI design. However, I strongly suspect Apple is going to regret these tactics in the long run. Once the tiger is out of the cage there's no telling who he will bite.

lotu 14y ago
While Apple may only have 30% of the smart-phone market, they make around 70% of the profit in the that market. I hardly call that punishing.
- cageface 14y ago
  I think they realize that this position is no more sustainable than their position was in the desktop market and they're acting out of fear. If you've used a recent, high-end Android phone you know that the quality gap is mostly gone and that the apps that most people care about are now available on both platforms. Apple is not going to be able to sustain their astonishing profit margins without the help of the courts.
  - masry 14y ago
    What profit margins? The iPhone has stayed at $200 while those high quality android phones typically sell for >= $250. The iPhone also outsells all androids combined on every carrier in the US where the iPhone is available. I think apple is doing fine.
  - gurkendoktor 14y ago
    Don't forget that Apple has a mountain of cash and an insane advantage in the tablet market. Macs are on the rise too. All this can be used to keep people in the Apple ecosystem. (iCloud is surprisingly meh, though.) Not saying that Apple will succeed, but the future doesn't seem so clear to me.
    - rapind 14y ago
      It's the apple ecosystem that's the problem for me. Not everything they touch turns to gold, and force feeding us the lead with the gold is a becoming a turnoff.
    - cageface 14y ago
      I think Apple is here to stay but I don't see how they can sustain their phenomenal profit levels if their market share keeps slipping unless they keep winning in the courts. What I'd like to see is a healthy market with two or three real competitors. It's much better for consumers and developers than another decade of monoculture protected by patent minefields.
      - Anechoic 14y ago
        What I'd like to see is a healthy market with two or three real competitors. As would I, although I would like that market to offer real choice, and not just one first-mover and 1-2 copycats. Microsoft, Palm and Nokia managed to figure out how to make a touchscreen phone that isn't a warmed-over iPhone, I hope this provides the push for Samsung to do the same.
        cageface 14y ago
        I deeply distrust MS as a company but I agree they deserve some credit for striking off in their own direction. I don't think Android is as similar to iOS as many claim but I would like to see more experiments as bold as WP8 in this space.
pooriaazimi 14y ago
> the market has punished [Apple] for it You're serious? They take 73% of the profit in smartphone market, with Samsung at the second place (26%) and HTC, third (1%), their stock is booming, they have more money in the bank than all of their competitors combined (they can buy Samsung, HTC and Dell and shut them down and still have a few billion dollars left). I'd call that reward, not punishment. http://www.asymco.com/2012/05/03/the-phone-market-in-2012-a-tale-of-two-disruptions/ http://www.asymco.com/2012/05/03/the-phone-market-in-2012-a-...
- cageface 14y ago
  Their market share is rapidly falling wrt Android. There's no way they can maintain that profit share if this continues and they know it.
  - pooriaazimi 14y ago
    You're certainly entitled to your opinion, but I disagree. I find Apple's strategy more solid and sustainable than their competitors'. BTW, I just wanted to say you have a GitHub link on your HN profile that leads to a 404. I thought maybe that was a mistake and you might want to fix it :)
    - cageface 14y ago
      It seems like essentially the same strategy that lost them the desktop wars after taking an early lead with the Mac. I don't see why we should expect things to be any different this time, although their vertical approach is better suited to mobile. Thanks for heads up on github. Fixed.
      - deleted 14y ago
        [deleted]
      - jfb 14y ago
        I can't see a meaningful analogy with the old Apple; to assert one is to assume that totally divergent situations (Apple owning a market wholesale, versus being a niche player) and companies (Apple 2012 is very different from Apple 1998) somehow combine in a way that papers over the very real changes that have happened internal and externally.
astrange 14y ago
> and the market has punished them for it In what way?
ellyagg 14y ago
Apart from the specifics of this or any other court case involving Apple attacking Samsung, I find the desire to defend Samsung odd. Obviously they copied Apple as much as they felt they could get away with. They did this because it was a very conservative way to make a lot of money. This isn't an admirable strategy. It's annoying. It's precisely the strategy that major movie studios use to give us one boring, risk-free "blockbuster" after another. The other day I read a history of the making of White Men Can't Jump: http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/8266665/an-oral-history-ron-shelton-basketball-comedy-white-men-jump http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/8266665/an-oral-history-... The head of Fox at the time, Joe Roth, mentions, "That movie wouldn't get made today. Us moviemaking guys, the studios, have less courage to make a movie like that today with the kind of racial, sexual overtones." It's sad. I would appreciate a big budget movie studio that did not consistently churn out the safest derivative crap they can. I do appreciate that there's one consumer electronics company that attempts and succeeds at novel, high risk products. Of course, there's a good chance that risk taking spark died recently, but I have appreciated its presence until now. Maybe patents are bad, but I don't think is a case where that stance holds much emotional appeal other than to those who like to see Apple lose. Most people think Samsung clearly did something shady here and deserves to be punished.
- cageface 14y ago
  I don't have any particular loyalty to Samsung but these cases set a chilling precedent for the platform that looks likely to dominate the computing industry for at least the next decade. There's much more at stake here than a few billion dollars and a few icons and scrolling techniques. If this continues we're going to spend the next decade tiptoeing around every trivial implementation detail of mobile UI instead of boldly exploring new ideas. Apple's successful use of the broken patent system sends exactly the wrong signal.
  - angryasian 14y ago
    Not only that, its going to set innovating in the mobile space back even farther. While Apple outlines every decision meticulously for planned obsolescence, Google and others take a more throw something out there, see if it works and run with it approach. With both strongly competing it pushes the entire industry forward faster.
mikeflynn 14y ago
Yeah, the market is really "punishing" them all right: https://www.google.com/finance?client=ob&q=NASDAQ:AAPL https://www.google.com/finance?client=ob&q=NASDAQ:AAPL (stock currently at $663) Google and Apple may have, at a high level, opposing strategies, but Apple's approach is being adopted more and more (app stores, having more control on the experience, etc...) and companies wouldn't do that if it wasn't working. Hell Google's own products, the ones where they stamp "Google" on the back of the device, are very much in the line of Apple's usual MO. Sure Android will always have a few more "geeky" features (app side-loading) but the Nexus 7 is very Apple-like in it's execution (...and it's great!). tl;dr - Their business models aren't as different as the old Windows vs Mac comparison.
- cageface 14y ago
  Apple's strategy assumes that a single company and a single line of devices can indefinitely command the lion's share of the most important computing platform of our time. This just doesn't seem tenable to me. For every consumer that's completely satisfied with the Apple experience there will be 3-4 others that prefer some other product for any number of reasons. When in the history of the world have we ever seen a single company and a single line of products dominate a mass-market consumer segment for more than a few years?
  - kenrikm 14y ago
    iPod....
  - forensic 14y ago
    >When in the history of the world have we ever seen a single company and a single line of products dominate a mass-market consumer segment for more than a few years? the historical norm is monopoly, not competition
benihana 14y ago
>They've refused to compete with Android on price, features, and form factors and the market has punished them for it. In what universe did the market punish them? Apple has shipped 250 million phones and made 150 billion dollars in revenue in the five years since the iPhone shipped[1]. Each iPhone version has sold more than every other version combined[2]. [1]http://techcrunch.com/2012/06/27/strategy-analytics-apple-has-shipped-250m-iphones-made-150b-in-revenues-in-the-past-5-years/ http://techcrunch.com/2012/06/27/strategy-analytics-apple-ha... [2]http://thenextweb.com/apple/2012/08/03/apples-phil-schiller-each-new-model-of-iphone-sells-as-many-units-as-all-previous-models-combined/ http://thenextweb.com/apple/2012/08/03/apples-phil-schiller-...
- kamechan 14y ago
  In the global market where android now has 60 something percent market share and iPhones have 18.
  - forensic 14y ago
    That global market is mostly made up people who would never become Apple customers. Apple really doesn't target poor people; Android does.
    - kamechan 14y ago
      to me, this comment seems to be phrased a tad bit negatively, even though it may be factually correct. a lot of people like to talk about "android fragmentation". while the variety of devices out there can sometimes be annoying as a consumer and developer, i tend to think of it as "android diversity" instead. to me, it's wonderful that your so-called "poor people", who may not even have a regular computer and for whom the "premium" experience that apple is not an option, still have an opportunity to participate in the "modern world". even if it's with a device that gearheads would turn their noses up at. technology liberates, informs, and elevates people. the fact that the android ecosystem is flexible enough to accommodate a huge demographic is a strength, in my mind, and not a weakness.
andyman1080 14y ago
As an Apple shareholder I must say I'm loving this market punishment!

lotu 14y ago

While Apple may only have 30% of the smart-phone market, they make around 70% of the profit in the that market. I hardly call that punishing.

cageface 14y ago
I think they realize that this position is no more sustainable than their position was in the desktop market and they're acting out of fear. If you've used a recent, high-end Android phone you know that the quality gap is mostly gone and that the apps that most people care about are now available on both platforms. Apple is not going to be able to sustain their astonishing profit margins without the help of the courts.
- masry 14y ago
  What profit margins? The iPhone has stayed at $200 while those high quality android phones typically sell for >= $250. The iPhone also outsells all androids combined on every carrier in the US where the iPhone is available. I think apple is doing fine.
- gurkendoktor 14y ago
  Don't forget that Apple has a mountain of cash and an insane advantage in the tablet market. Macs are on the rise too. All this can be used to keep people in the Apple ecosystem. (iCloud is surprisingly meh, though.) Not saying that Apple will succeed, but the future doesn't seem so clear to me.
  - rapind 14y ago
    It's the apple ecosystem that's the problem for me. Not everything they touch turns to gold, and force feeding us the lead with the gold is a becoming a turnoff.
  - cageface 14y ago
    I think Apple is here to stay but I don't see how they can sustain their phenomenal profit levels if their market share keeps slipping unless they keep winning in the courts. What I'd like to see is a healthy market with two or three real competitors. It's much better for consumers and developers than another decade of monoculture protected by patent minefields.
    - Anechoic 14y ago
      What I'd like to see is a healthy market with two or three real competitors. As would I, although I would like that market to offer real choice, and not just one first-mover and 1-2 copycats. Microsoft, Palm and Nokia managed to figure out how to make a touchscreen phone that isn't a warmed-over iPhone, I hope this provides the push for Samsung to do the same.
      - cageface 14y ago
        I deeply distrust MS as a company but I agree they deserve some credit for striking off in their own direction. I don't think Android is as similar to iOS as many claim but I would like to see more experiments as bold as WP8 in this space.

pooriaazimi 14y ago

> the market has punished [Apple] for it You're serious? They take 73% of the profit in smartphone market, with Samsung at the second place (26%) and HTC, third (1%), their stock is booming, they have more money in the bank than all of their competitors combined (they can buy Samsung, HTC and Dell and shut them down and still have a few billion dollars left). I'd call that reward, not punishment. http://www.asymco.com/2012/05/03/the-phone-market-in-2012-a-tale-of-two-disruptions/ http://www.asymco.com/2012/05/03/the-phone-market-in-2012-a-...

cageface 14y ago
Their market share is rapidly falling wrt Android. There's no way they can maintain that profit share if this continues and they know it.
- pooriaazimi 14y ago
  You're certainly entitled to your opinion, but I disagree. I find Apple's strategy more solid and sustainable than their competitors'. BTW, I just wanted to say you have a GitHub link on your HN profile that leads to a 404. I thought maybe that was a mistake and you might want to fix it :)
  - cageface 14y ago
    It seems like essentially the same strategy that lost them the desktop wars after taking an early lead with the Mac. I don't see why we should expect things to be any different this time, although their vertical approach is better suited to mobile. Thanks for heads up on github. Fixed.
    - deleted 14y ago
      [deleted]
    - jfb 14y ago
      I can't see a meaningful analogy with the old Apple; to assert one is to assume that totally divergent situations (Apple owning a market wholesale, versus being a niche player) and companies (Apple 2012 is very different from Apple 1998) somehow combine in a way that papers over the very real changes that have happened internal and externally.

astrange 14y ago

> and the market has punished them for it In what way?

ellyagg 14y ago

Apart from the specifics of this or any other court case involving Apple attacking Samsung, I find the desire to defend Samsung odd. Obviously they copied Apple as much as they felt they could get away with. They did this because it was a very conservative way to make a lot of money. This isn't an admirable strategy. It's annoying. It's precisely the strategy that major movie studios use to give us one boring, risk-free "blockbuster" after another. The other day I read a history of the making of White Men Can't Jump: http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/8266665/an-oral-history-ron-shelton-basketball-comedy-white-men-jump http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/8266665/an-oral-history-... The head of Fox at the time, Joe Roth, mentions, "That movie wouldn't get made today. Us moviemaking guys, the studios, have less courage to make a movie like that today with the kind of racial, sexual overtones." It's sad. I would appreciate a big budget movie studio that did not consistently churn out the safest derivative crap they can. I do appreciate that there's one consumer electronics company that attempts and succeeds at novel, high risk products. Of course, there's a good chance that risk taking spark died recently, but I have appreciated its presence until now. Maybe patents are bad, but I don't think is a case where that stance holds much emotional appeal other than to those who like to see Apple lose. Most people think Samsung clearly did something shady here and deserves to be punished.

cageface 14y ago
I don't have any particular loyalty to Samsung but these cases set a chilling precedent for the platform that looks likely to dominate the computing industry for at least the next decade. There's much more at stake here than a few billion dollars and a few icons and scrolling techniques. If this continues we're going to spend the next decade tiptoeing around every trivial implementation detail of mobile UI instead of boldly exploring new ideas. Apple's successful use of the broken patent system sends exactly the wrong signal.
- angryasian 14y ago
  Not only that, its going to set innovating in the mobile space back even farther. While Apple outlines every decision meticulously for planned obsolescence, Google and others take a more throw something out there, see if it works and run with it approach. With both strongly competing it pushes the entire industry forward faster.

mikeflynn 14y ago

Yeah, the market is really "punishing" them all right: https://www.google.com/finance?client=ob&q=NASDAQ:AAPL https://www.google.com/finance?client=ob&q=NASDAQ:AAPL (stock currently at $663) Google and Apple may have, at a high level, opposing strategies, but Apple's approach is being adopted more and more (app stores, having more control on the experience, etc...) and companies wouldn't do that if it wasn't working. Hell Google's own products, the ones where they stamp "Google" on the back of the device, are very much in the line of Apple's usual MO. Sure Android will always have a few more "geeky" features (app side-loading) but the Nexus 7 is very Apple-like in it's execution (...and it's great!). tl;dr - Their business models aren't as different as the old Windows vs Mac comparison.

cageface 14y ago
Apple's strategy assumes that a single company and a single line of devices can indefinitely command the lion's share of the most important computing platform of our time. This just doesn't seem tenable to me. For every consumer that's completely satisfied with the Apple experience there will be 3-4 others that prefer some other product for any number of reasons. When in the history of the world have we ever seen a single company and a single line of products dominate a mass-market consumer segment for more than a few years?
- kenrikm 14y ago
  iPod....
- forensic 14y ago
  >When in the history of the world have we ever seen a single company and a single line of products dominate a mass-market consumer segment for more than a few years? the historical norm is monopoly, not competition

benihana 14y ago

>They've refused to compete with Android on price, features, and form factors and the market has punished them for it. In what universe did the market punish them? Apple has shipped 250 million phones and made 150 billion dollars in revenue in the five years since the iPhone shipped[1]. Each iPhone version has sold more than every other version combined[2]. [1]http://techcrunch.com/2012/06/27/strategy-analytics-apple-has-shipped-250m-iphones-made-150b-in-revenues-in-the-past-5-years/ http://techcrunch.com/2012/06/27/strategy-analytics-apple-ha... [2]http://thenextweb.com/apple/2012/08/03/apples-phil-schiller-each-new-model-of-iphone-sells-as-many-units-as-all-previous-models-combined/ http://thenextweb.com/apple/2012/08/03/apples-phil-schiller-...

kamechan 14y ago
In the global market where android now has 60 something percent market share and iPhones have 18.
- forensic 14y ago
  That global market is mostly made up people who would never become Apple customers. Apple really doesn't target poor people; Android does.
  - kamechan 14y ago
    to me, this comment seems to be phrased a tad bit negatively, even though it may be factually correct. a lot of people like to talk about "android fragmentation". while the variety of devices out there can sometimes be annoying as a consumer and developer, i tend to think of it as "android diversity" instead. to me, it's wonderful that your so-called "poor people", who may not even have a regular computer and for whom the "premium" experience that apple is not an option, still have an opportunity to participate in the "modern world". even if it's with a device that gearheads would turn their noses up at. technology liberates, informs, and elevates people. the fact that the android ecosystem is flexible enough to accommodate a huge demographic is a strength, in my mind, and not a weakness.

andyman1080 14y ago

As an Apple shareholder I must say I'm loving this market punishment!