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This is exactly why there is no point in using AI for coding unless in rare fee cases. Code without AI - sharp skills, your brain works and you come up with be

This is exactly why there is no point in using AI for coding unless in rare fee cases. Code without AI - sharp skills, your brain works and you come up with better solutions etc. Code with AI - skills decline after merely a week or two, you forget how to think and because of relying on AI for simpler and simpler tasks - your total output is less and worse that in you were to diy it.

dyauspitr 1y ago
My total output is definitely higher.
- darkwater 1y ago
  5 years from now, will you ability to explain or build from first principles on your own be increased, though?
  - wiseowise 1y ago
    Yes. Because none of this bullshit matters. I’ve heard this mantra for 20 years now. Smug face: “weeeell, how can you say you’re a real programmer if you use a compiler? You need write raw assembly”, “how can you call yourself reeeeal programmer if you don’t know your computer down to every register?”, “real programmurs do not use SO/Google” and all the rest of the crap. It is all nerds trying to make themselves feel good by inflating their ego with trivia that is not interesting to anyone. Well, what do you know? I’m still in business, despite relying a lot on Google/SO, and still create solutions that fix real human problems. If AI can make 9 to 5 more bearable for majority of people and provide value in terms less cognitive load, let’s fucking go then.
    - nottorp 1y ago
      Common bullshit. Expert not realizing that even if they are capable of using these tools because they can - subconsciously in your case - verify them, it doesn't mean it helps non experts.
      - wiseowise 1y ago
        Touché. On this I agree with you, since I’ve started in different age.
        nottorp 1y ago
        I haven't written serious assembly since high school :) But I'm 100% sure i have some "natural" neural connections based on those experiences and those help me even when doing high level languages. By the way, I am using LLMs. They help until they don't. One real life example i'm hitting at work is they keep mixing couchdb and couchbase when you ask about features. Their training dataset doesn't seem to be large enough in that area.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
  - nottorp 1y ago
    You are exhibiting traces of long term thinking. This is not what founder culture is about.
    - darkwater 1y ago
      I hope the ASI overlord will pardon me.
- risyachka 1y ago
  >>My total output is definitely higher. its paper gains, the value you create is not correlated with your code output. and the value you will create decreases if you don't think hard and train in solving problems on your own.
- xigoi 1y ago
  If you only care about the volume of code and not the quality or usefulness, I have an even better tool for you: yes 'print("hello world")' > program.py
squigz 1y ago
Does this logic apply to IDEs, search engines, or any of the various other tools programmers use?
- risyachka 1y ago
  no IDEs and tools don't do thinking for you.
Kon5ole 1y ago
>Code without AI - sharp skills, your brain works and you come up with better solutions etc. That train of thought leads to writing assembly language in ed. ;-) I think developers as a group have a tendency to spend too much time "inside baseball" and forget what the tools we're good at are actually used for. Farmers don't defend the scythe, spend time doing leetscythe katas or go to scything seminars. They think about the harvest. (Ok, some farmers started the sport of Tractor Pulling when the tractor came along and forgot about the harvest but still!) :)
- bootsmann 1y ago
  > That train of thought leads to writing assembly language in ed Hard disagree, LLVM will always outperform me in writing assembly, it won't just give up and fail randomly when it meets a particularly non-trivial problem, causing me to write assembly by hand to fix it. If LLMs would be 100% reliable on the tasks I had to do, I don't think anyone here would seriously debate about the issue of mental attrition (i.e. you don't see people complaining about calculators). The problem is that in too many cases, the LLM will only get so far and you will still have to switch to doing actual programming to get the task finished and the worse you get at that last part the more your skillset converges to exactly the type of things an LLM (and therefore everyone else with a keyboard) can reliably do.
  - Kon5ole 1y ago
    >The problem is that in too many cases, the LLM will only get so far and you will still have to switch to doing actual programming to get the task finished The LLM makes mistakes sure and isn't a slam dunk tool like a compiler, but it could still save lots of time and be useful. Some things are fine to let rot. Nobody should spend too much time learning Vue, React or Laravel, or even nhibernate, entity framework or structuremap, for example. Such frameworks come and go, the knowledge has little value. Save brain cells for more important, long-lasting things instead. LLM's can certainly help with that.
    - bootsmann 1y ago
      > Some things are fine to let rot. Nobody should spend too much time learning Vue, React or Laravel, or even nhibernate, entity framework or structuremap, for example. The way you phrase this you make it sound like an LLM can already solve every possible task you would ever get in Vue, React or Laravel but my entire point is that this is simply not true. As a consequence of this, whenever the LLM fails at a task (which gets more likely the more complex the task is) you will still need to know how Vue, React or Laravel work to actually finish your task but this is the exact knowledge you lose if you spend 80% of your day prompting instead of writing code. The more you rely on the LLM to write your code the more the code you are able to produce converges with the one that the LLM can put out.

dyauspitr 1y ago

My total output is definitely higher.

darkwater 1y ago
5 years from now, will you ability to explain or build from first principles on your own be increased, though?
- wiseowise 1y ago
  Yes. Because none of this bullshit matters. I’ve heard this mantra for 20 years now. Smug face: “weeeell, how can you say you’re a real programmer if you use a compiler? You need write raw assembly”, “how can you call yourself reeeeal programmer if you don’t know your computer down to every register?”, “real programmurs do not use SO/Google” and all the rest of the crap. It is all nerds trying to make themselves feel good by inflating their ego with trivia that is not interesting to anyone. Well, what do you know? I’m still in business, despite relying a lot on Google/SO, and still create solutions that fix real human problems. If AI can make 9 to 5 more bearable for majority of people and provide value in terms less cognitive load, let’s fucking go then.
  - nottorp 1y ago
    Common bullshit. Expert not realizing that even if they are capable of using these tools because they can - subconsciously in your case - verify them, it doesn't mean it helps non experts.
    - wiseowise 1y ago
      Touché. On this I agree with you, since I’ve started in different age.
      - nottorp 1y ago
        I haven't written serious assembly since high school :) But I'm 100% sure i have some "natural" neural connections based on those experiences and those help me even when doing high level languages. By the way, I am using LLMs. They help until they don't. One real life example i'm hitting at work is they keep mixing couchdb and couchbase when you ask about features. Their training dataset doesn't seem to be large enough in that area.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- nottorp 1y ago
  You are exhibiting traces of long term thinking. This is not what founder culture is about.
  - darkwater 1y ago
    I hope the ASI overlord will pardon me.
risyachka 1y ago
>>My total output is definitely higher. its paper gains, the value you create is not correlated with your code output. and the value you will create decreases if you don't think hard and train in solving problems on your own.
xigoi 1y ago
If you only care about the volume of code and not the quality or usefulness, I have an even better tool for you: yes 'print("hello world")' > program.py

squigz 1y ago

Does this logic apply to IDEs, search engines, or any of the various other tools programmers use?

risyachka 1y ago
no IDEs and tools don't do thinking for you.

Kon5ole 1y ago

>Code without AI - sharp skills, your brain works and you come up with better solutions etc. That train of thought leads to writing assembly language in ed. ;-) I think developers as a group have a tendency to spend too much time "inside baseball" and forget what the tools we're good at are actually used for. Farmers don't defend the scythe, spend time doing leetscythe katas or go to scything seminars. They think about the harvest. (Ok, some farmers started the sport of Tractor Pulling when the tractor came along and forgot about the harvest but still!) :)

bootsmann 1y ago
> That train of thought leads to writing assembly language in ed Hard disagree, LLVM will always outperform me in writing assembly, it won't just give up and fail randomly when it meets a particularly non-trivial problem, causing me to write assembly by hand to fix it. If LLMs would be 100% reliable on the tasks I had to do, I don't think anyone here would seriously debate about the issue of mental attrition (i.e. you don't see people complaining about calculators). The problem is that in too many cases, the LLM will only get so far and you will still have to switch to doing actual programming to get the task finished and the worse you get at that last part the more your skillset converges to exactly the type of things an LLM (and therefore everyone else with a keyboard) can reliably do.
- Kon5ole 1y ago
  >The problem is that in too many cases, the LLM will only get so far and you will still have to switch to doing actual programming to get the task finished The LLM makes mistakes sure and isn't a slam dunk tool like a compiler, but it could still save lots of time and be useful. Some things are fine to let rot. Nobody should spend too much time learning Vue, React or Laravel, or even nhibernate, entity framework or structuremap, for example. Such frameworks come and go, the knowledge has little value. Save brain cells for more important, long-lasting things instead. LLM's can certainly help with that.
  - bootsmann 1y ago
    > Some things are fine to let rot. Nobody should spend too much time learning Vue, React or Laravel, or even nhibernate, entity framework or structuremap, for example. The way you phrase this you make it sound like an LLM can already solve every possible task you would ever get in Vue, React or Laravel but my entire point is that this is simply not true. As a consequence of this, whenever the LLM fails at a task (which gets more likely the more complex the task is) you will still need to know how Vue, React or Laravel work to actually finish your task but this is the exact knowledge you lose if you spend 80% of your day prompting instead of writing code. The more you rely on the LLM to write your code the more the code you are able to produce converges with the one that the LLM can put out.