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> X11 is a proper system and protocol It's really not, it's designed for drawing on remote terminals over a network (it even has a print server), not hardware

> X11 is a proper system and protocol It's really not, it's designed for drawing on remote terminals over a network (it even has a print server), not hardware accelerated devices. Things like HDR, multiple refresh rates, mixed DPI, passive compositing, hardware planes are just harder to do. There was a reason Android didn't use Xorg and instead used SurfaceFlinger (which shares more design with Wayland than Xorg).

gf000 1y ago
What I don't understand is why do "GNU Linux" have such an adverse reaction to anything Android? Like why wasn't SurfaceFlinger got adapted for both?
- ChocolateGod 1y ago
  > Like why wasn't SurfaceFlinger got adapted for both IIRC SurfaceFlinger is tightly tied to Binder which is an Android only kernel IPC, didn't work with the standard Mesa stack and wasn't designed for multiple windows with multiple displays. Wouldn't be surprised though if eventually Android swaps to Wayland as Google wants to merge it with ChromeOS. Since talking to the compositor is abstracted away to the platform APIs, I don't see it as big of a hurdle as X11 to Wayland was.
  - gf000 1y ago
    Fair enough. Though I would be happy if merging of work would happen in either direction.
    - ahartmetz 1y ago
      It doesn't seem like Android devices have much to offer to fill desktop computing functionality gaps in Wayland.
      - ChocolateGod 1y ago
        Adopting SurfaceFlinger on the desktop would certainly be a step backwards, OEMs effectively fork it each time and change it for functionality on their devices. Google sometimes tries to add these features (e.g. split screen, multiple windows etc) into the base code but can take time for OEMs to adopt them on their skins.
  - m-p-3 1y ago
    I'm curious to see what Google did for their Desktop Mode / DeX-like implementation in Android 16.
teleforce 1y ago
>Things like HDR, multiple refresh rates, mixed DPI, passive compositing, hardware planes are just harder to do. Are you sure it's easier to do with Wayland, all this while the Linux HDR is not working well [1],[2]. I've got the feeling that every features claimed to be easier with Wayland are all bogus and the same thing can be achieved with the same amount of effort and time on X. Wayland now really feel like the Emperor's New Cloth. [1] Ubuntu 25.04 & Fedora 42 Hit A Long Sought Milestone With HDR Support Working Well On The Linux Desktop: https://www.phoronix.com/review/linux-hdr-2025 https://www.phoronix.com/review/linux-hdr-2025 [2] Wayland Color Management & HDR Protocol Support Merged: https://www.phoronix.com/news/Wayland-CM-HDR-Merged https://www.phoronix.com/news/Wayland-CM-HDR-Merged
phendrenad2 1y ago
> it's designed for drawing on remote terminals over a network Yes, but. On a local machine the "network" is just system calls, and the kernel just hands the data from one process to the other. The overhead is minimal. HDR, multiple refresh rates, mixed DPI, these can all be implemented on the existing protocol. X11 actually closely resembles win32 (it was inspired by the same source after all - Xerox Parc GUI research), which has support for all of these things (it may not be pretty but are Adobe or the legion of game devs complaining? Of course not, it's write once and done.)

gf000 1y ago

What I don't understand is why do "GNU Linux" have such an adverse reaction to anything Android? Like why wasn't SurfaceFlinger got adapted for both?

ChocolateGod 1y ago
> Like why wasn't SurfaceFlinger got adapted for both IIRC SurfaceFlinger is tightly tied to Binder which is an Android only kernel IPC, didn't work with the standard Mesa stack and wasn't designed for multiple windows with multiple displays. Wouldn't be surprised though if eventually Android swaps to Wayland as Google wants to merge it with ChromeOS. Since talking to the compositor is abstracted away to the platform APIs, I don't see it as big of a hurdle as X11 to Wayland was.
- gf000 1y ago
  Fair enough. Though I would be happy if merging of work would happen in either direction.
  - ahartmetz 1y ago
    It doesn't seem like Android devices have much to offer to fill desktop computing functionality gaps in Wayland.
    - ChocolateGod 1y ago
      Adopting SurfaceFlinger on the desktop would certainly be a step backwards, OEMs effectively fork it each time and change it for functionality on their devices. Google sometimes tries to add these features (e.g. split screen, multiple windows etc) into the base code but can take time for OEMs to adopt them on their skins.
- m-p-3 1y ago
  I'm curious to see what Google did for their Desktop Mode / DeX-like implementation in Android 16.

teleforce 1y ago

>Things like HDR, multiple refresh rates, mixed DPI, passive compositing, hardware planes are just harder to do. Are you sure it's easier to do with Wayland, all this while the Linux HDR is not working well [1],[2]. I've got the feeling that every features claimed to be easier with Wayland are all bogus and the same thing can be achieved with the same amount of effort and time on X. Wayland now really feel like the Emperor's New Cloth. [1] Ubuntu 25.04 & Fedora 42 Hit A Long Sought Milestone With HDR Support Working Well On The Linux Desktop: https://www.phoronix.com/review/linux-hdr-2025 https://www.phoronix.com/review/linux-hdr-2025 [2] Wayland Color Management & HDR Protocol Support Merged: https://www.phoronix.com/news/Wayland-CM-HDR-Merged https://www.phoronix.com/news/Wayland-CM-HDR-Merged

phendrenad2 1y ago

> it's designed for drawing on remote terminals over a network Yes, but. On a local machine the "network" is just system calls, and the kernel just hands the data from one process to the other. The overhead is minimal. HDR, multiple refresh rates, mixed DPI, these can all be implemented on the existing protocol. X11 actually closely resembles win32 (it was inspired by the same source after all - Xerox Parc GUI research), which has support for all of these things (it may not be pretty but are Adobe or the legion of game devs complaining? Of course not, it's write once and done.)