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1. The kernel never provides stable interfaces in kernel space. That's just how it is. 2. Nobody can work with them anyway because their drivers are closed sou

1. The kernel never provides stable interfaces in kernel space. That's just how it is. 2. Nobody can work with them anyway because their drivers are closed sourced. They decided they should be the only ones developing them, so be it. If they upstreamed them they would get thousands of contributor's worth of help.

charcircuit 1y ago
1. It doesn't have to be that way. Windows provides a stable interface for drivers for example. 2. Directly contributing code is not the only way to work with someone.
- boudin 1y ago
  You're talking about Linux here, that has nothing to do with wayland, it's always been like this and unlikely to change.
  - charcircuit 1y ago
    The other person was talking about Linux. For a Wayland example look at the tight coupling Wayland compositors have with Mesa. It wasn't until 2021 where Nvidia had to be the ones to contribute their own code for being able to dynamically load new gbm backends that weren't already compiled in.
    - boudin 1y ago
      That's a really weird way to look at it. In reality nvidia just chose to not invest in it. This sums it up: https://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2016/09/to-eglstream-or-not/ https://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2016/09/to-eglstream-... Gnome did land eglstream support by the way, xwayland as well. I think kde too at some point (not sure about that). Nvidia had a lot of options on the table: - allow nouveau to reclock gpus or, better, collaborate with them so that at least there's one usable driver. - follow the community consensus and go with GBM straight away. Didn't seem to be a problem in the first place as it's what they are doing now. - open source their driver like other manufacturer and be part of mesa. Community had one option: dedicate a lot of time and effort to create a whole code path for nvidia only and having to debug it against a black box driver
      - charcircuit 1y ago
        >In reality nvidia just chose to not invest in it. This sums it up This article is proving my point. People were not willing to work with Nvidia and would prefer to stick to their unstandardized Mesa specific approach with gbm. As a path forward Nvidia tried proposing a cross platform open standard that would solve not only wayland's use case, which to me appears as Nvidia going above in investment. >allow nouveau to reclock gpus Nouveau able to if they load the proper firmware onto the GPU. >at least there's one usable driver It's quite a stretch to call it usable and would not make sense to be the default experience for the average user. >follow the community consensus and go with GBM straight away As I mentioned GBM was tightly coupled with Mesa, so that wasn't directly possible. >open source their driver like other manufacturer and be part of mesa. This is an unreasonable demand, that would never happen. Saying that Wayland won't work on Nvidia hardware because they won't open source the driver and port it to Mesa just shows how stubborn and uncooperative one is as opposed to trying to find solutions to deliver user value. >dedicate a lot of time and effort to create a whole code path for nvidia only and having to debug it against a black box driver There was never anything nvidia only in this situation. The only "only" was gbm being a proprietary API that was only a part of Mesa.
        boudin 1y ago
        So much bad faith... > This article is proving my point. People were not willing to work with Nvidia and would prefer to stick to their unstandardized Mesa specific approach with gbm. As a path forward Nvidia tried proposing a cross platform open standard that would solve not only wayland's use case, which to me appears as Nvidia going above in investment. Kwin, gnome and xwayland did end up supporting eglstream, it was shit, people blamed wayland because it became a sport, nvidia did go gdm in the end and the eglstream backends which were a waste of time were dropped. > Nouveau able to if they load the proper firmware onto the GPU. Nvidia explicitly prevented them to do so by not providing the ability to load any firmware... > As I mentioned GBM was tightly coupled with Mesa, so that wasn't directly possible. It absolutely was and their driver is using GBM now as a proof. > This is an unreasonable demand, that would never happen. Saying that Wayland won't work on Nvidia hardware because they won't open source the driver and port it to Mesa just shows how stubborn and uncooperative one is as opposed to trying to find solutions to deliver user value. Why so? Most manufacturer do so. > There was never anything nvidia only in this situation. The only "only" was gbm being a proprietary API that was only a part of Mesa. GBM is specific to mesa maybe but far from proprietary what world do you live in? :D

charcircuit 1y ago

1. It doesn't have to be that way. Windows provides a stable interface for drivers for example. 2. Directly contributing code is not the only way to work with someone.

boudin 1y ago
You're talking about Linux here, that has nothing to do with wayland, it's always been like this and unlikely to change.
- charcircuit 1y ago
  The other person was talking about Linux. For a Wayland example look at the tight coupling Wayland compositors have with Mesa. It wasn't until 2021 where Nvidia had to be the ones to contribute their own code for being able to dynamically load new gbm backends that weren't already compiled in.
  - boudin 1y ago
    That's a really weird way to look at it. In reality nvidia just chose to not invest in it. This sums it up: https://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2016/09/to-eglstream-or-not/ https://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2016/09/to-eglstream-... Gnome did land eglstream support by the way, xwayland as well. I think kde too at some point (not sure about that). Nvidia had a lot of options on the table: - allow nouveau to reclock gpus or, better, collaborate with them so that at least there's one usable driver. - follow the community consensus and go with GBM straight away. Didn't seem to be a problem in the first place as it's what they are doing now. - open source their driver like other manufacturer and be part of mesa. Community had one option: dedicate a lot of time and effort to create a whole code path for nvidia only and having to debug it against a black box driver
    - charcircuit 1y ago
      >In reality nvidia just chose to not invest in it. This sums it up This article is proving my point. People were not willing to work with Nvidia and would prefer to stick to their unstandardized Mesa specific approach with gbm. As a path forward Nvidia tried proposing a cross platform open standard that would solve not only wayland's use case, which to me appears as Nvidia going above in investment. >allow nouveau to reclock gpus Nouveau able to if they load the proper firmware onto the GPU. >at least there's one usable driver It's quite a stretch to call it usable and would not make sense to be the default experience for the average user. >follow the community consensus and go with GBM straight away As I mentioned GBM was tightly coupled with Mesa, so that wasn't directly possible. >open source their driver like other manufacturer and be part of mesa. This is an unreasonable demand, that would never happen. Saying that Wayland won't work on Nvidia hardware because they won't open source the driver and port it to Mesa just shows how stubborn and uncooperative one is as opposed to trying to find solutions to deliver user value. >dedicate a lot of time and effort to create a whole code path for nvidia only and having to debug it against a black box driver There was never anything nvidia only in this situation. The only "only" was gbm being a proprietary API that was only a part of Mesa.
      - boudin 1y ago
        So much bad faith... > This article is proving my point. People were not willing to work with Nvidia and would prefer to stick to their unstandardized Mesa specific approach with gbm. As a path forward Nvidia tried proposing a cross platform open standard that would solve not only wayland's use case, which to me appears as Nvidia going above in investment. Kwin, gnome and xwayland did end up supporting eglstream, it was shit, people blamed wayland because it became a sport, nvidia did go gdm in the end and the eglstream backends which were a waste of time were dropped. > Nouveau able to if they load the proper firmware onto the GPU. Nvidia explicitly prevented them to do so by not providing the ability to load any firmware... > As I mentioned GBM was tightly coupled with Mesa, so that wasn't directly possible. It absolutely was and their driver is using GBM now as a proof. > This is an unreasonable demand, that would never happen. Saying that Wayland won't work on Nvidia hardware because they won't open source the driver and port it to Mesa just shows how stubborn and uncooperative one is as opposed to trying to find solutions to deliver user value. Why so? Most manufacturer do so. > There was never anything nvidia only in this situation. The only "only" was gbm being a proprietary API that was only a part of Mesa. GBM is specific to mesa maybe but far from proprietary what world do you live in? :D