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They usually just do a mea culpa: Camera: https://www.bitdefender.com/en-us/blog/hotforsecurity/facebook-app-for-ios-caught-accessing-camera-in-background http

by EGreg 1y ago

They usually just do a mea culpa: Camera: https://www.bitdefender.com/en-us/blog/hotforsecurity/facebook-app-for-ios-caught-accessing-camera-in-background https://www.bitdefender.com/en-us/blog/hotforsecurity/facebo... Audio: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41424016 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41424016 Conversations: https://www.vice.com/en/article/facebook-said-it-wasnt-listening-to-your-conversations-it-was/ https://www.vice.com/en/article/facebook-said-it-wasnt-liste... Mass surveillance: https://thehill.com/video/facebook-spying-on-users-new-report-details-social-networks-mass-surveillance/9305488/ https://thehill.com/video/facebook-spying-on-users-new-repor... Across the web: https://www.wired.com/story/ways-facebook-tracks-you-limit-it/ https://www.wired.com/story/ways-facebook-tracks-you-limit-i... Beacon: https://www.wired.com/2007/12/facebook-ceo-apologizes-lets-users-turn-off-beacon/ https://www.wired.com/2007/12/facebook-ceo-apologizes-lets-u... Apps: https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/mar/17/cambridge-analytica-facebook-influence-us-election https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/mar/17/cambridge-analy... People who aren't even on facebook: https://www.vox.com/2018/4/20/17254312/facebook-shadow-profiles-data-collection-non-users-mark-zuckerberg https://www.vox.com/2018/4/20/17254312/facebook-shadow-profi... Others do it too, e.g. Amazon: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-04-10/is-anyone-listening-to-you-on-alexa-a-global-team-reviews-audio?embedded-checkout=true https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-04-10/is-anyone... But Facebook has always been on a whole other level https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/apr/17/facebook-people-first-ever-mark-zuckerberg-harvard https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/apr/17/facebook-...

bdangubic 1y ago
I will never understand how anyone in their right mind can use any product owned by Meta…
- vkou 1y ago
  Easily. The alternatives are also probably up to the same sketchy shit, so your choices are to be a hermit, or accept that your services will spy on you. If you want to participate in society, you have to either trust a very large list of untrustworthy people... Or acknowledge that they are untrustworthy, and mitigate accordingly. Part of that mitigation is accepting the possibility that if the Mossad want to murder you by blowing up your toaster, nobody's going to stop them.
  - bdangubic 1y ago
    don’t use any alternatives. I have been off social media for years now and my life and health and relationships and career and … have improved so much I cannot put it in words. even if one says “well that’s crazy, I must get my dopamine through an “app” on my phone meta is on another level of insanity to even consider infesting your life and especially your loved one’s life
    - vkou 1y ago
      Sure, I can also avoid putting chemicals on my body by washing my hair with apple cider vinegar and baking soda, and I can also churn my own butter by hand, and if mom wants to hear from me, she can cross an international border and drive for five hours, with her travels being logged by countless security and traffic cameras, gas station payment processors, and no less than two governments, so that she can converse with me in person in my RF-shielded, copper-lined[1] Faraday-cage basement. There's social media use and there's social media use. Hacker News, Reddit, Facebook, Instagram, Whatsapp, EMail, and my phone's SMS systems all serve dramatically different purposes, and all of them are a varied mix of pros and cons and risks. --- [1] Any Arcanist worth his salt knows that copper has no name, and thus cannot be turned against you.
      - bdangubic 1y ago
        this is too funny how you mind believes social media is “advancement in society” of any kind… don’t blame you though, you are with the majority (and you know what they say when you are… :) )
        vkou 1y ago
        I believe nothing of the sort about social (or mass) media. I do, however, believe that you aren't engaging with what I'm saying, or recognizing some very obvious logical holes in your arguments. Your argument seems to be one of dogma, not one of reason.
        1y ago
- philistine 1y ago
  Imagine a small local non-profit with 5000 likes on their page. They might be trying their darnedest to improve their newsletter numbers, but they still need to be on Facebook. Imagine that times a billion.
  - bdangubic 1y ago
    meta has made everyone believe that only through their platform can you grow your non-profits and whatnots. and they are obviously great at this, everyone bought that shit. you can organically grow (especially small) non-profits without fucking meta apps.
- x0x0 1y ago
  Signal lagged so far in polish and features that getting friends and family to use it was doa. So I can choose to communicate with friends and family on the apps they use, or I make it very difficult for them to communicate with me. That ends with them mostly not communicating with me, not with them switching apps.
  - bdangubic 1y ago
    don’t your friends and family have phone numbers? I have right now 12 active groups on my text messages. why on earth do you need “app”??! I am lost …
    - vkou 1y ago
      You're using a telephone to call and message people? If you think that your phone provider isn't spying on you, I would like to cut you into an incredible, once-in-a-lifetime investment opportunity in some Louisiana waterfront property. All I need is your phone number, mother's maiden name, ...
      - bdangubic 1y ago
        sure, NSA might be :) but not Meta…
        x0x0 1y ago
        And China. And likely lots of other nations. https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/security/chinese-hackers-stole-americans-phone-data-8-telecoms-us-officials-say-rcna182942 https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/security/chinese-hackers-stole-...
        bdangubic 1y ago
        got no problems with China, their entire existence is not predicated on selling shit to people and fucking with our youth.
    - 1y ago
- Cheer2171 1y ago
  Because the entire rest of society has wrapped itself around Facebook, Whatsapp, and Instagram. It is easy to be a free software purist until you need to know if your child's school has a snow day. Websites and mailing lists are dead. I cannot be involved in my child's school or any of the informal social networks around the parents and teachers without using Meta's platforms. I cannot volunteer at a non-profit I care deeply about without using Meta's platforms, because that's what they have to coordinate. Are you going to suggest to me that I should force them onto Signal and a pile of other DIY platforms? I dare you. Look a burned out parent in their bloodshot eyes first.
  - bdangubic 1y ago
    I have same situation and: - tell parents and teachers I can be reached at xxx-xxx-xxxx if they need anything - absolutely never had meta-requirement to volunteer. if I did I would 100% know my time there is better spent elsewhere I am not going to suggest you anything except to tell you that you can live a beautiful live outside of the meta-world. it is super easy
    - lukan 1y ago
      "I am not going to suggest you anything except to tell you that you can live a beautiful live outside of the meta-world. it is super easy" Great it is super easy for you, but why do you think your individual experience is valid for other people (who might be thousands of km away in a very different setting)?
      - bdangubic 1y ago
        it may not be but I’ve also heard this excuse a million times before. and whatever the situation is meta products can be avoided. we just have a tendency to give into “hey, we have WhateverSupApp group, why don’t you just install garbage on your phone to be a member of this cool group… thanks, but no thanks :)
        koakuma-chan 1y ago
- tokioyoyo 1y ago
  Because super vast majority of the population doesn't care. You can just look at the leaks from the last decade and its outcomes. Every company that deals with socials also know that people only care about their privacy within their own small circle. As in, they only care about privacy within their own small bubbles.
mgraczyk 1y ago
I was around for a lot of these. In none of these cases did Meta lie. They are all either fake or honest mistakes that Meta never lied about. For the second one in particular, Meta never listened to anyone's mic. I would know, I worked on this stuff there at that time.
- eesmith 1y ago
  Are you doing one of those 'a lie requires intention, and we can't know their internal state of mind, so we can't know if something is a lie unless they tell us' things? Do you consider misrepresentation a lie? If there's a lawsuit which determines that Meta misrepresented something, do you consider that a lie, even if Meta says it was merely on honest mistake made in good faith? If the European Commission "fines Facebook €110 million for providing misleading information about WhatsApp takeover" and that "contrary to Facebook's statements in the 2014 merger review process, the technical possibility of automatically matching Facebook and WhatsApp users' identities already existed in 2014, and that Facebook staff were aware of such a possibility" then that statement was not actually a lie, right, because no one at Facebook said they lied, correct? Can you give an example of any company which has lied, but where the company officials have never agreed with that conclusion? There is a long history in the US of companies having to pay a fine but never accepting responsibility. https://knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu/article/paying-a-fine-but-not-admitting-guilt/ https://knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu/article/paying-a-fine-bu...
  - mgraczyk 1y ago
    I don't think they misrepresented anything. The European Commission is wrong on the facts. Technology improved in unpredictable ways. Large public companies do not lie very often because it's incredibly easily for lies to be discovered, and the penalties are high. There are many examples where the popular narrative is the the company lied, but when you look at details it becomes clear that no lying occurred. For example, David Rainey probably did not actually lie about the extent of the BP oil spill even though most people still believe he did. He was acquitted by a jury who had access to far more information, and more time to think about it, than anyone else.
- 1y ago

by EGreg 1y ago

bdangubic 1y ago

I will never understand how anyone in their right mind can use any product owned by Meta…

vkou 1y ago
Easily. The alternatives are also probably up to the same sketchy shit, so your choices are to be a hermit, or accept that your services will spy on you. If you want to participate in society, you have to either trust a very large list of untrustworthy people... Or acknowledge that they are untrustworthy, and mitigate accordingly. Part of that mitigation is accepting the possibility that if the Mossad want to murder you by blowing up your toaster, nobody's going to stop them.
- bdangubic 1y ago
  don’t use any alternatives. I have been off social media for years now and my life and health and relationships and career and … have improved so much I cannot put it in words. even if one says “well that’s crazy, I must get my dopamine through an “app” on my phone meta is on another level of insanity to even consider infesting your life and especially your loved one’s life
  - vkou 1y ago
    Sure, I can also avoid putting chemicals on my body by washing my hair with apple cider vinegar and baking soda, and I can also churn my own butter by hand, and if mom wants to hear from me, she can cross an international border and drive for five hours, with her travels being logged by countless security and traffic cameras, gas station payment processors, and no less than two governments, so that she can converse with me in person in my RF-shielded, copper-lined[1] Faraday-cage basement. There's social media use and there's social media use. Hacker News, Reddit, Facebook, Instagram, Whatsapp, EMail, and my phone's SMS systems all serve dramatically different purposes, and all of them are a varied mix of pros and cons and risks. --- [1] Any Arcanist worth his salt knows that copper has no name, and thus cannot be turned against you.
    - bdangubic 1y ago
      this is too funny how you mind believes social media is “advancement in society” of any kind… don’t blame you though, you are with the majority (and you know what they say when you are… :) )
      - vkou 1y ago
        I believe nothing of the sort about social (or mass) media. I do, however, believe that you aren't engaging with what I'm saying, or recognizing some very obvious logical holes in your arguments. Your argument seems to be one of dogma, not one of reason.
        1y ago
philistine 1y ago
Imagine a small local non-profit with 5000 likes on their page. They might be trying their darnedest to improve their newsletter numbers, but they still need to be on Facebook. Imagine that times a billion.
- bdangubic 1y ago
  meta has made everyone believe that only through their platform can you grow your non-profits and whatnots. and they are obviously great at this, everyone bought that shit. you can organically grow (especially small) non-profits without fucking meta apps.
x0x0 1y ago
Signal lagged so far in polish and features that getting friends and family to use it was doa. So I can choose to communicate with friends and family on the apps they use, or I make it very difficult for them to communicate with me. That ends with them mostly not communicating with me, not with them switching apps.
- bdangubic 1y ago
  don’t your friends and family have phone numbers? I have right now 12 active groups on my text messages. why on earth do you need “app”??! I am lost …
  - vkou 1y ago
    You're using a telephone to call and message people? If you think that your phone provider isn't spying on you, I would like to cut you into an incredible, once-in-a-lifetime investment opportunity in some Louisiana waterfront property. All I need is your phone number, mother's maiden name, ...
    - bdangubic 1y ago
      sure, NSA might be :) but not Meta…
      - x0x0 1y ago
        And China. And likely lots of other nations. https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/security/chinese-hackers-stole-americans-phone-data-8-telecoms-us-officials-say-rcna182942 https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/security/chinese-hackers-stole-...
        bdangubic 1y ago
        got no problems with China, their entire existence is not predicated on selling shit to people and fucking with our youth.
  - 1y ago
Cheer2171 1y ago
Because the entire rest of society has wrapped itself around Facebook, Whatsapp, and Instagram. It is easy to be a free software purist until you need to know if your child's school has a snow day. Websites and mailing lists are dead. I cannot be involved in my child's school or any of the informal social networks around the parents and teachers without using Meta's platforms. I cannot volunteer at a non-profit I care deeply about without using Meta's platforms, because that's what they have to coordinate. Are you going to suggest to me that I should force them onto Signal and a pile of other DIY platforms? I dare you. Look a burned out parent in their bloodshot eyes first.
- bdangubic 1y ago
  I have same situation and: - tell parents and teachers I can be reached at xxx-xxx-xxxx if they need anything - absolutely never had meta-requirement to volunteer. if I did I would 100% know my time there is better spent elsewhere I am not going to suggest you anything except to tell you that you can live a beautiful live outside of the meta-world. it is super easy
  - lukan 1y ago
    "I am not going to suggest you anything except to tell you that you can live a beautiful live outside of the meta-world. it is super easy" Great it is super easy for you, but why do you think your individual experience is valid for other people (who might be thousands of km away in a very different setting)?
    - bdangubic 1y ago
      it may not be but I’ve also heard this excuse a million times before. and whatever the situation is meta products can be avoided. we just have a tendency to give into “hey, we have WhateverSupApp group, why don’t you just install garbage on your phone to be a member of this cool group… thanks, but no thanks :)
      - koakuma-chan 1y ago
tokioyoyo 1y ago
Because super vast majority of the population doesn't care. You can just look at the leaks from the last decade and its outcomes. Every company that deals with socials also know that people only care about their privacy within their own small circle. As in, they only care about privacy within their own small bubbles.

mgraczyk 1y ago

I was around for a lot of these. In none of these cases did Meta lie. They are all either fake or honest mistakes that Meta never lied about. For the second one in particular, Meta never listened to anyone's mic. I would know, I worked on this stuff there at that time.

eesmith 1y ago
Are you doing one of those 'a lie requires intention, and we can't know their internal state of mind, so we can't know if something is a lie unless they tell us' things? Do you consider misrepresentation a lie? If there's a lawsuit which determines that Meta misrepresented something, do you consider that a lie, even if Meta says it was merely on honest mistake made in good faith? If the European Commission "fines Facebook €110 million for providing misleading information about WhatsApp takeover" and that "contrary to Facebook's statements in the 2014 merger review process, the technical possibility of automatically matching Facebook and WhatsApp users' identities already existed in 2014, and that Facebook staff were aware of such a possibility" then that statement was not actually a lie, right, because no one at Facebook said they lied, correct? Can you give an example of any company which has lied, but where the company officials have never agreed with that conclusion? There is a long history in the US of companies having to pay a fine but never accepting responsibility. https://knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu/article/paying-a-fine-but-not-admitting-guilt/ https://knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu/article/paying-a-fine-bu...
- mgraczyk 1y ago
  I don't think they misrepresented anything. The European Commission is wrong on the facts. Technology improved in unpredictable ways. Large public companies do not lie very often because it's incredibly easily for lies to be discovered, and the penalties are high. There are many examples where the popular narrative is the the company lied, but when you look at details it becomes clear that no lying occurred. For example, David Rainey probably did not actually lie about the extent of the BP oil spill even though most people still believe he did. He was acquitted by a jury who had access to far more information, and more time to think about it, than anyone else.
1y ago