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That doesn’t really work. If there’s no longer a browser which supports X11, then I have to choose between browsing the web and having a usable desktop. The p

That doesn’t really work. If there’s no longer a browser which supports X11, then I have to choose between browsing the web and having a usable desktop. The problem is that the Wayland folks are trying to replace X11 rather than provide an easy upgrade path. They simply don’t care about anyone who uses a computer in any way outside of the ways they can be bothered to support. ‘It’s better!’ they cry, despite users telling them for well over a decade now that it’s not actually, because we cannot do the things we want. And Wayland is being used as a form of lock-in. ‘GNOME uses Wayland now. Just drop support for that crufty old X11,’ they whisper. Never mind that plenty of folks don’t use GNOME and don’t want to use GNOME. Never mind that Wayland is still not fit for purpose. It may be someday, and that would be great. I’d genuinely look forward to being able to move on from X11. But Wayland does not work for me, and as projects start to remove support for X11 they are removing support for me.

em-bee 1y ago
they are providing an upgrade path: XWayland. i have yet to come across an X11 application that does not run despite using wayland.
- eadmund 1y ago
  Is it possible to run an X11 window manager in XWayland and have it manage Wayland windows and intercept keystrokes for all windows? If not then it’s not really an upgrade path. I do get it — no-one owes me anything. They don’t even, really, owe me the kindness of not breaking the software I use. In principle I could fork and maintain everything I want myself, or working with others. But …
  - em-bee 1y ago
    that's not fair. window managers are not regular apps. wayland has a different architecture that changes how windows are managed. this also has to affect things like taking screenhots, screen sharing, recording, locking, screensavers, etc. intercepting/sending keystrokes in particular had to be redesigned to make to make it more secure. without that there would not have been a point to wayland at all. your actual apps that just display stuff on the screen and take your input all still work though.
    - eadmund 1y ago
      > intercepting/sending keystrokes in particular had to be redesigned to make to make it more secure. without that there would not have been a point to wayland at all. Sure, and I really would like to enjoy that security improvement. But would an evolutionary approach have been possible? For example, would it have been possible to start by running Wayland with all programs in a privileged status, then migrate to using something like OpenBSD’s pledge(2) to spawn programs preferentially in an unprivileged status, then migrate to spawning some programs (e.g. legacy X11 display managers) in a privileged status? It sure seems like Wayland requires a lot more work from software using it than X11 did. Wayland has been out for 16 years and still isn’t almost universal; 16 years after X11’s 1984 release it was well-nigh universal. Again, I get that no-one owes me anything. But it seems to me that the Wayland developers committed the fundamental error of trying to replace a working system with vapourware. It’s still vapourware, in that in 2025 Wayland is still not a drop-in replacement for X11. > your actual apps that just display stuff on the screen and take your input all still work though. My display manager is an actual app that is a fundamental part of my workflow.
      - palata 1y ago
        > It’s still vapourware, in that in 2025 Wayland is still not a drop-in replacement for X11. If it was vapourware, nobody would find it useful. I have been using it for 4 years, it works. I wouldn't call that vapourware. Question: how do you feel about systemd? Feels similar to me. Nobody forces me to use systemd (and I don't), but the evolution is such that more and more software assumes systemd and it hurts the minority who is not using it. In order not to use systemd, I can choose a distro that supports something else. Aren't there distros out there that still support X11? Surely that must exist...
- bsder 1y ago
  See: https://www.kicad.org/blog/2025/06/KiCad-and-Wayland-Support/ https://www.kicad.org/blog/2025/06/KiCad-and-Wayland-Support... It has been almost 20 years and Wayland JUST merged pointer warp support (literally like last week)--which is absolutely fundamental to both CAD and menu systems. So, no, Wayland does not support some very important use cases. If you've had 20 years and can't be better than what you claim you are replacing, what does that say about you as a programmer or organization?
  - palata 1y ago
    Who pays for Wayland? Do you? I don't. It's not like it's Microsoft.
    - bsder 1y ago
      Developers are entitled to do whatever they want. However ... In this case, there are some genuine arguments that what the Wayland developers are doing is, at the least, kind of anti-social and quite possibly harmful to the Linux ecosystem. Earlier: https://flak.tedunangst.com/post/killing-X11 https://flak.tedunangst.com/post/killing-X11 Note the posting from KiCad: https://www.kicad.org/blog/2025/06/KiCad-and-Wayland-Support/ https://www.kicad.org/blog/2025/06/KiCad-and-Wayland-Support... This was kicked off because KiCad (and other applications that use X11) wound up with a whole bunch of bug reports because Wayland developers broke mutter which broke XWayland which broke a whole bunch of apps. This wasn't a subtle bug; it made it very clear that RedHat doesn't even do basic application testing inside of XWayland. So, a whole bunch of applications had to field a whole bunch of bug reports that weren't their fault simply because a "Linux" company with lots of money and resources can't be arsed to not cause collateral damage. Consequently, people are starting to ask some really hard questions as to whether the overall Linux community would be better off without Wayland.
- yjftsjthsd-h 1y ago
  > i have yet to come across an X11 application that does not run despite using wayland. That is both the good thing and the bad thing. Application software can seamlessly work on Wayland via XWayland. Anything that needs to touch things outside its own window - notably, a11y and automation tools (which in fairness are functionally the same thing) don't have it so easy.
hokumguru 1y ago
At some point though shouldn’t we just push a new standard in order to increase adoption (and thus support/stability)? Thinking heavily of Apple and USB C.
anon-3988 1y ago
> That doesn’t really work. If there’s no longer a browser which supports X11, then I have to choose between browsing the web and having a usable desktop. You can keep using the older software? No one is forcing you to upgrade? Should these people be forced to work on projects they don't like?
- eadmund 1y ago
  I wrote in a sibling comment ‘I do get it — no-one owes me anything.’ No-one should be forced to do anything. Folks are and should be free to work on whatever suits their fancy. But folks should also have a sense of duty or responsibility not to needlessly interfere with others. I am free to release a reïmplementation of ls(1). I’m free to extend it. But I shouldn’t change the meaning of ‘ls -d’ to delete all matching files, because it conflicts with POSIX. I shouldn’t change the meaning of ‘ls -b’ to overwrite matching files with nulls (blanks), even though POSIX doesn’t define it at all and in theory I am free to do so, because GNU ls(1) already uses it for printing C-style escapes.

em-bee 1y ago

they are providing an upgrade path: XWayland. i have yet to come across an X11 application that does not run despite using wayland.

eadmund 1y ago
Is it possible to run an X11 window manager in XWayland and have it manage Wayland windows and intercept keystrokes for all windows? If not then it’s not really an upgrade path. I do get it — no-one owes me anything. They don’t even, really, owe me the kindness of not breaking the software I use. In principle I could fork and maintain everything I want myself, or working with others. But …
- em-bee 1y ago
  that's not fair. window managers are not regular apps. wayland has a different architecture that changes how windows are managed. this also has to affect things like taking screenhots, screen sharing, recording, locking, screensavers, etc. intercepting/sending keystrokes in particular had to be redesigned to make to make it more secure. without that there would not have been a point to wayland at all. your actual apps that just display stuff on the screen and take your input all still work though.
  - eadmund 1y ago
    > intercepting/sending keystrokes in particular had to be redesigned to make to make it more secure. without that there would not have been a point to wayland at all. Sure, and I really would like to enjoy that security improvement. But would an evolutionary approach have been possible? For example, would it have been possible to start by running Wayland with all programs in a privileged status, then migrate to using something like OpenBSD’s pledge(2) to spawn programs preferentially in an unprivileged status, then migrate to spawning some programs (e.g. legacy X11 display managers) in a privileged status? It sure seems like Wayland requires a lot more work from software using it than X11 did. Wayland has been out for 16 years and still isn’t almost universal; 16 years after X11’s 1984 release it was well-nigh universal. Again, I get that no-one owes me anything. But it seems to me that the Wayland developers committed the fundamental error of trying to replace a working system with vapourware. It’s still vapourware, in that in 2025 Wayland is still not a drop-in replacement for X11. > your actual apps that just display stuff on the screen and take your input all still work though. My display manager is an actual app that is a fundamental part of my workflow.
    - palata 1y ago
      > It’s still vapourware, in that in 2025 Wayland is still not a drop-in replacement for X11. If it was vapourware, nobody would find it useful. I have been using it for 4 years, it works. I wouldn't call that vapourware. Question: how do you feel about systemd? Feels similar to me. Nobody forces me to use systemd (and I don't), but the evolution is such that more and more software assumes systemd and it hurts the minority who is not using it. In order not to use systemd, I can choose a distro that supports something else. Aren't there distros out there that still support X11? Surely that must exist...
bsder 1y ago
See: https://www.kicad.org/blog/2025/06/KiCad-and-Wayland-Support/ https://www.kicad.org/blog/2025/06/KiCad-and-Wayland-Support... It has been almost 20 years and Wayland JUST merged pointer warp support (literally like last week)--which is absolutely fundamental to both CAD and menu systems. So, no, Wayland does not support some very important use cases. If you've had 20 years and can't be better than what you claim you are replacing, what does that say about you as a programmer or organization?
- palata 1y ago
  Who pays for Wayland? Do you? I don't. It's not like it's Microsoft.
  - bsder 1y ago
    Developers are entitled to do whatever they want. However ... In this case, there are some genuine arguments that what the Wayland developers are doing is, at the least, kind of anti-social and quite possibly harmful to the Linux ecosystem. Earlier: https://flak.tedunangst.com/post/killing-X11 https://flak.tedunangst.com/post/killing-X11 Note the posting from KiCad: https://www.kicad.org/blog/2025/06/KiCad-and-Wayland-Support/ https://www.kicad.org/blog/2025/06/KiCad-and-Wayland-Support... This was kicked off because KiCad (and other applications that use X11) wound up with a whole bunch of bug reports because Wayland developers broke mutter which broke XWayland which broke a whole bunch of apps. This wasn't a subtle bug; it made it very clear that RedHat doesn't even do basic application testing inside of XWayland. So, a whole bunch of applications had to field a whole bunch of bug reports that weren't their fault simply because a "Linux" company with lots of money and resources can't be arsed to not cause collateral damage. Consequently, people are starting to ask some really hard questions as to whether the overall Linux community would be better off without Wayland.
yjftsjthsd-h 1y ago
> i have yet to come across an X11 application that does not run despite using wayland. That is both the good thing and the bad thing. Application software can seamlessly work on Wayland via XWayland. Anything that needs to touch things outside its own window - notably, a11y and automation tools (which in fairness are functionally the same thing) don't have it so easy.

hokumguru 1y ago

At some point though shouldn’t we just push a new standard in order to increase adoption (and thus support/stability)? Thinking heavily of Apple and USB C.

anon-3988 1y ago

> That doesn’t really work. If there’s no longer a browser which supports X11, then I have to choose between browsing the web and having a usable desktop. You can keep using the older software? No one is forcing you to upgrade? Should these people be forced to work on projects they don't like?

eadmund 1y ago
I wrote in a sibling comment ‘I do get it — no-one owes me anything.’ No-one should be forced to do anything. Folks are and should be free to work on whatever suits their fancy. But folks should also have a sense of duty or responsibility not to needlessly interfere with others. I am free to release a reïmplementation of ls(1). I’m free to extend it. But I shouldn’t change the meaning of ‘ls -d’ to delete all matching files, because it conflicts with POSIX. I shouldn’t change the meaning of ‘ls -b’ to overwrite matching files with nulls (blanks), even though POSIX doesn’t define it at all and in theory I am free to do so, because GNU ls(1) already uses it for printing C-style escapes.