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Having this specific guy becoming the lead/creator/maintainer of Xlibre, strengthens my argument about the kind of people who are against the Xorg->Wayland repl

Having this specific guy becoming the lead/creator/maintainer of Xlibre, strengthens my argument about the kind of people who are against the Xorg->Wayland replacement.

Starlevel004 1y ago
[flagged]
- TkTech 1y ago
  I've been here for 13 years and I've never seen so many flagged throw-away accounts as I have in the series of threads discussing this fork. I was blissfully unaware of this niche corner of the conspiracy hive mind. The README, their anti-vax rants, the "Make X great again!", the way they write... I'm getting Terry A. Davis (RIP) déjà vu.
  - WesolyKubeczek 1y ago
    In the Laundry Files by Charles Stross, doing too much computations in your head may give you a form of brain damage by inviting extra-dimensional feeders to feast on your central nervous system. I feel like while the details may differ, as far as the big picture is concerned, he is not wrong.
    - JdeBP 1y ago
      Funnily enough, it was M. Stross who put me onto the fuss about the X11Libre's project's politics, and the GitHub issue over its README, just under a week ago. M. Stross had some rather strong words to say on the subject.
      - SSLy 1y ago
        mind sparing a link to the words?
      - WesolyKubeczek 1y ago
        Who is M. Stross?
WesolyKubeczek 1y ago
I couldn't be not against Wayland in those dark times when some distributions would make it as the default, at which time the flagship Wayland DE was using XWayland for its own panels. Which made a shitshow of a blurry mess on a HiDPI screen. I couldn't be not against Wayland when in half of the applications I used clipboard wasn't working properly. I couldn't be not against Wayland when screen sharing would either use X11 or not work at all. I couldn't be not against Wayland when most of the complexity shifted from X server to compositors and toolkits, and it both diluted responsibility for the gnarliest bugs (go guess if it's the compositor or the toolkit! Added fun when it's the boundary of both!) and made it possible to write GNOME-only, or KDE-only, or wlroots-only software that won't work on another compositor because it needs a private implementation of an obscure protocol. I couldn't be not against Wayland when your window manager breaking would bring your whole session down, complete with the breakage happening a lot. I hear that there are problems with input protocols like "your toolkit has to implement several versions of the same thing and they all are half-arsed anyway", but living in the happy land of the Unicode's Basic Multilingual Plane, I know too little of this problem to have a say about it. But I'm somehow not surprised. There is also this thing about Unix-like systems not being limited to Linux, and the story of Wayland elsewhere is way worse. Most of the gnarliest points are now addressed, and Plasma got super stable around 5.26 onwards, however, I'm not really happy that we now have a triumvirate of Mutter, KWin, and wlroots, and that the bar for entry for new compositors is quite high. The fact that X11 allowed a proliferation of window managers is its advantage, not the other way around. I'm wondering if someone gets to write a compositor that will be "engine, not policy" for Wayland, on top of which different desktop environments could be built. Like wlroots, but some steps further. It will probably have a year of glory, and then Wayland will be declared obsolete, crufty, insecure, legacy, and in dire need of being replaced with something lean and simple, and maybe written by an LLM. Good thing I'm going to be too old or too dead to give a shit by the time it happens.
nooope6 1y ago
People needing software that actually works?
arp242 1y ago
I'm sorry, but this is just complete nonsense. You can't just paint with a mega-broad brush just because there's one (or a few) unpleasant people in some demographic. You can do that for any demographic: Canadians, Vietnamese, people over 1.80m, people under 1.80m, people exactly 1.80m, etc. I just got better things to do than rewrite code from one working display system to ... another working display system. That's all there is to it, and that's the case for many (probably most) people.

Having this specific guy becoming the lead/creator/maintainer of Xlibre, strengthens my argument about the kind of people who are against the Xorg->Wayland replacement.

Starlevel004 1y ago

[flagged]

TkTech 1y ago
I've been here for 13 years and I've never seen so many flagged throw-away accounts as I have in the series of threads discussing this fork. I was blissfully unaware of this niche corner of the conspiracy hive mind. The README, their anti-vax rants, the "Make X great again!", the way they write... I'm getting Terry A. Davis (RIP) déjà vu.
- WesolyKubeczek 1y ago
  In the Laundry Files by Charles Stross, doing too much computations in your head may give you a form of brain damage by inviting extra-dimensional feeders to feast on your central nervous system. I feel like while the details may differ, as far as the big picture is concerned, he is not wrong.
  - JdeBP 1y ago
    Funnily enough, it was M. Stross who put me onto the fuss about the X11Libre's project's politics, and the GitHub issue over its README, just under a week ago. M. Stross had some rather strong words to say on the subject.
    - SSLy 1y ago
      mind sparing a link to the words?
    - WesolyKubeczek 1y ago
      Who is M. Stross?

WesolyKubeczek 1y ago

I couldn't be not against Wayland in those dark times when some distributions would make it as the default, at which time the flagship Wayland DE was using XWayland for its own panels. Which made a shitshow of a blurry mess on a HiDPI screen. I couldn't be not against Wayland when in half of the applications I used clipboard wasn't working properly. I couldn't be not against Wayland when screen sharing would either use X11 or not work at all. I couldn't be not against Wayland when most of the complexity shifted from X server to compositors and toolkits, and it both diluted responsibility for the gnarliest bugs (go guess if it's the compositor or the toolkit! Added fun when it's the boundary of both!) and made it possible to write GNOME-only, or KDE-only, or wlroots-only software that won't work on another compositor because it needs a private implementation of an obscure protocol. I couldn't be not against Wayland when your window manager breaking would bring your whole session down, complete with the breakage happening a lot. I hear that there are problems with input protocols like "your toolkit has to implement several versions of the same thing and they all are half-arsed anyway", but living in the happy land of the Unicode's Basic Multilingual Plane, I know too little of this problem to have a say about it. But I'm somehow not surprised. There is also this thing about Unix-like systems not being limited to Linux, and the story of Wayland elsewhere is way worse. Most of the gnarliest points are now addressed, and Plasma got super stable around 5.26 onwards, however, I'm not really happy that we now have a triumvirate of Mutter, KWin, and wlroots, and that the bar for entry for new compositors is quite high. The fact that X11 allowed a proliferation of window managers is its advantage, not the other way around. I'm wondering if someone gets to write a compositor that will be "engine, not policy" for Wayland, on top of which different desktop environments could be built. Like wlroots, but some steps further. It will probably have a year of glory, and then Wayland will be declared obsolete, crufty, insecure, legacy, and in dire need of being replaced with something lean and simple, and maybe written by an LLM. Good thing I'm going to be too old or too dead to give a shit by the time it happens.

nooope6 1y ago

People needing software that actually works?

arp242 1y ago

I'm sorry, but this is just complete nonsense. You can't just paint with a mega-broad brush just because there's one (or a few) unpleasant people in some demographic. You can do that for any demographic: Canadians, Vietnamese, people over 1.80m, people under 1.80m, people exactly 1.80m, etc. I just got better things to do than rewrite code from one working display system to ... another working display system. That's all there is to it, and that's the case for many (probably most) people.