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If you don't bother about any app being able to spoof on your pressed keys: go, use Xorg. But why stop there, and cope with a multi-user environment? Just boot

If you don't bother about any app being able to spoof on your pressed keys: go, use Xorg. But why stop there, and cope with a multi-user environment? Just boot into single user mode and "chmod a+rwx / -R". A lot of other /problems/ solved too. /S

panzi 1y ago
How do accessibility tools work with that? They need to examine and control other running processes.
- stop50 1y ago
  Fake inputs are done with uinput(kernel interface). Access to the screen is usually over pipewire.
  - panzi 1y ago
    Doesn't writing to /dev/uinput require you to be root? That's way worse security wise than faking X11 inputs. Also you can't direct the inputs to a specific window. That is bound to create problems where events go to the wrong process. Also PipeWire is an audio interface. A replacement to PulseAudio. That has nothing to do with accessing screens.
    - yjftsjthsd-h 1y ago
      > Also PipeWire is an audio interface. A replacement to PulseAudio. That has nothing to do with accessing screens. No, it's a general audio/video system, including video from cameras and virtual video streams from screen capture; see https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/PipeWire#WebRTC_screen_sharing https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/PipeWire#WebRTC_screen_shar... for some discussion.
      - panzi 1y ago
        Didn't know it also does video. But accessibility tools don't just want video, they want APIs to read all text and other GUI structures directly. OCR is just too imprecise and a waste of resources.
lelanthran 1y ago
> If you don't bother about any app being able to spoof on your pressed keys: go, use Xorg. The correct response to "All applications can spoof keypresses or act as a keylogger" is "Okay, force user to grant permission before an application does this". The Wayland response is "No application should be allowed to do this". Whether you like it or not, sometimes users actually want functionality that you deem is insecure, and you gotta find a way to deliver what Windows, MacOS and X11 all deliver.
- c-hendricks 1y ago
  How would that experience work on X? Wouldn't any app that accepts keyboard input throw up your suggested permission granting interface? That's pretty much all apps. Also it's not like global hotkeys don't exist in Wayland.
  - lelanthran 1y ago
    > How would that experience work on X? Wouldn't any app that accepts keyboard input throw up your suggested permission granting interface? That's pretty much all apps. That's the point - applications that need to perform malicious looking (but not actually) activity like intercepting or injecting keyboard inputs already work on X! What we are talking about is them not working on Wayland! > Also it's not like global hotkeys don't exist in Wayland. There are more features than simply mapping hotkeys, remapping keyboards, etc which already work on consumer computers, such as Windows, MacOS and X. What we are asking for when we complain about Wayland is the same functionality that already exists on Windows, MacOS and X. Whether the Waylan devs think that the requests are unreasonable or not is, frankly, irrelevant. When everyone but Wayland supports something, the Wayland developers have to justify their decision to go against the norm. The people asking for the norm typically don't need to justify why they want the norm.

panzi 1y ago

How do accessibility tools work with that? They need to examine and control other running processes.

stop50 1y ago
Fake inputs are done with uinput(kernel interface). Access to the screen is usually over pipewire.
- panzi 1y ago
  Doesn't writing to /dev/uinput require you to be root? That's way worse security wise than faking X11 inputs. Also you can't direct the inputs to a specific window. That is bound to create problems where events go to the wrong process. Also PipeWire is an audio interface. A replacement to PulseAudio. That has nothing to do with accessing screens.
  - yjftsjthsd-h 1y ago
    > Also PipeWire is an audio interface. A replacement to PulseAudio. That has nothing to do with accessing screens. No, it's a general audio/video system, including video from cameras and virtual video streams from screen capture; see https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/PipeWire#WebRTC_screen_sharing https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/PipeWire#WebRTC_screen_shar... for some discussion.
    - panzi 1y ago
      Didn't know it also does video. But accessibility tools don't just want video, they want APIs to read all text and other GUI structures directly. OCR is just too imprecise and a waste of resources.

lelanthran 1y ago

> If you don't bother about any app being able to spoof on your pressed keys: go, use Xorg. The correct response to "All applications can spoof keypresses or act as a keylogger" is "Okay, force user to grant permission before an application does this". The Wayland response is "No application should be allowed to do this". Whether you like it or not, sometimes users actually want functionality that you deem is insecure, and you gotta find a way to deliver what Windows, MacOS and X11 all deliver.

c-hendricks 1y ago
How would that experience work on X? Wouldn't any app that accepts keyboard input throw up your suggested permission granting interface? That's pretty much all apps. Also it's not like global hotkeys don't exist in Wayland.
- lelanthran 1y ago
  > How would that experience work on X? Wouldn't any app that accepts keyboard input throw up your suggested permission granting interface? That's pretty much all apps. That's the point - applications that need to perform malicious looking (but not actually) activity like intercepting or injecting keyboard inputs already work on X! What we are talking about is them not working on Wayland! > Also it's not like global hotkeys don't exist in Wayland. There are more features than simply mapping hotkeys, remapping keyboards, etc which already work on consumer computers, such as Windows, MacOS and X. What we are asking for when we complain about Wayland is the same functionality that already exists on Windows, MacOS and X. Whether the Waylan devs think that the requests are unreasonable or not is, frankly, irrelevant. When everyone but Wayland supports something, the Wayland developers have to justify their decision to go against the norm. The people asking for the norm typically don't need to justify why they want the norm.