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Interesting read. I reminded me of some stories a German guy who used to work for a Spanish utility told me (the guy lost his job at one of the first closed Ger

by riedel 1y ago

Interesting read. I reminded me of some stories a German guy who used to work for a Spanish utility told me (the guy lost his job at one of the first closed German nuclear facilities and now worked at the museum of a pumped storage power plant): he told us that the Spanish utility he worked for waited far too long to kick in gas power plants waiting for prices to rise further making tons of money by risking stability. I also learned from him that a lot German nuclear facilities are still running there generators only as weight to stabilize the network. (Actually he also told us that some utilities legally abuse the pumped storage to trade energy between networks). So it seems there are some strange incentives and necessities in today's system , that might explain the failures to react in time.

mschuster91 1y ago
> I also learned from him that a lot German nuclear facilities are still running there generators only as weight to stabilize the network. We aren't. Pretty much the first things that get dismantled is the turbines and machinery that has no radiation exposure because you need space to maneuver, buffer, dismantle and decontaminate everything else that's coming out of the innards of the plant and actually is contaminated. Maybe you can get some remaining use as reactive power provider done during the ~1 year that it takes for the bureaucracy to process the actual permit for dismantling [1] - but even during that time, restarting it again is practically impossible after the main coolant pipes have been flushed [2] (that happened shortly after the plant had been formally taken offline and all the uranium pellets were removed from the core, although I can't find out how many months that took - but it did happen in the same year as the shutdown, so less than 8 months). The only thing that's being kept connected to the grid after that is the small portion that supplies the cooling for the cooldown pools where the freshly removed uranium pellets deplete enough material that they can be stored in CASTOR containers [3]. In addition, the high-voltage switching equipment is being kept alive in Landshut's case as the area of the former NPP is planned to be the end point of the SüdOstLink national grid expansion link and the power is supposed to be transferred from Ohu to the wider regional/state grid using the existing tie-ins of the former NPP [4]. If you want I can try to contact the utility handling the teardown about specifics, I live a few kilometers from there after all, but I doubt they're going to share much information given the obvious threat of Russian espionage. It's also a workplace safety issue. You absolutely do not want electricity anywhere where you do not vitally need it, particularly no high voltage. EDIT: Thanks to @closewith, indeed Biblis A's genset was converted for a "second life" as power regulator in 2011/2012 [5], but that's (at least from a cursory research) all I could find. [1] https://www.br.de/nachrichten/bayern/genehmigung-fuer-rueckbau-des-atomkraftwerks-isar-2-erteilt,U7kkOt0 https://www.br.de/nachrichten/bayern/genehmigung-fuer-rueckb... [2] https://www.bayerische-staatszeitung.de/staatszeitung/politik/detailansicht-politik/artikel/rueckbau-von-bayerns-atommeilern-geht-schnell-voran.html#topPosition https://www.bayerische-staatszeitung.de/staatszeitung/politi... [3] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castor_(Kerntechnik) https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castor_(Kerntechnik) [4] https://www.br.de/nachrichten/bayern/tennet-stellt-suedostlink-trasse-von-pfatter-nach-landshut-vor,Tbs9hdI https://www.br.de/nachrichten/bayern/tennet-stellt-suedostli... [5] https://www.amprion.net/Presse/Presse-Detailseite_2667.html https://www.amprion.net/Presse/Presse-Detailseite_2667.html
- closewith 1y ago
  Biblis A is used for syn-con, which I presume is what the person the GP spoke to was talking about.
  - mschuster91 1y ago
    Ah, that explains things - I only looked at the history of the last three in Emsland, Neckarwestheim and Ohu because I assumed that everything else was far too much dismantled to still be operational in any form or shape. Thanks!
- riedel 1y ago
  Had to read up on it as it was only hear say. But apparently RWE did this after Biblis was shut down [0] . They were already deconstructing other parts and the generators were in the non-nuclear part. No clue about other sites though [0] https://www.rwe.com/presse/rwe-power/2019-02-27-kraftwerk-biblis-erfolgreiche-netzstutzung-mit-dem-phasenschieber-beendet/ https://www.rwe.com/presse/rwe-power/2019-02-27-kraftwerk-bi...
b3orn 1y ago
> I also learned from him that a lot German nuclear facilities are still running there generators only as weight to stabilize the network The term for this is synchronous condenser. According to the system stability report 2023 [0] there were three of these in Germany in 2023 (source is in german, the term you're looking for is rotierender Phasenschieber). It is not clear if these are converted generators, most likely they are not former nuclear power plants, but likely located at the sites of former coal power plants because of the existing grid nodes. For the future this is a concept that is investigated to provide reactive power, in that case from former coal power plants. [0]: https://www.bundesnetzagentur.de/DE/Fachthemen/ElektrizitaetundGas/NEP/Strom/Systemstabilitaet/Systemstabilitaetsbericht.pdf https://www.bundesnetzagentur.de/DE/Fachthemen/Elektrizitaet...

by riedel 1y ago

mschuster91 1y ago

> I also learned from him that a lot German nuclear facilities are still running there generators only as weight to stabilize the network. We aren't. Pretty much the first things that get dismantled is the turbines and machinery that has no radiation exposure because you need space to maneuver, buffer, dismantle and decontaminate everything else that's coming out of the innards of the plant and actually is contaminated. Maybe you can get some remaining use as reactive power provider done during the ~1 year that it takes for the bureaucracy to process the actual permit for dismantling [1] - but even during that time, restarting it again is practically impossible after the main coolant pipes have been flushed [2] (that happened shortly after the plant had been formally taken offline and all the uranium pellets were removed from the core, although I can't find out how many months that took - but it did happen in the same year as the shutdown, so less than 8 months). The only thing that's being kept connected to the grid after that is the small portion that supplies the cooling for the cooldown pools where the freshly removed uranium pellets deplete enough material that they can be stored in CASTOR containers [3]. In addition, the high-voltage switching equipment is being kept alive in Landshut's case as the area of the former NPP is planned to be the end point of the SüdOstLink national grid expansion link and the power is supposed to be transferred from Ohu to the wider regional/state grid using the existing tie-ins of the former NPP [4]. If you want I can try to contact the utility handling the teardown about specifics, I live a few kilometers from there after all, but I doubt they're going to share much information given the obvious threat of Russian espionage. It's also a workplace safety issue. You absolutely do not want electricity anywhere where you do not vitally need it, particularly no high voltage. EDIT: Thanks to @closewith, indeed Biblis A's genset was converted for a "second life" as power regulator in 2011/2012 [5], but that's (at least from a cursory research) all I could find. [1] https://www.br.de/nachrichten/bayern/genehmigung-fuer-rueckbau-des-atomkraftwerks-isar-2-erteilt,U7kkOt0 https://www.br.de/nachrichten/bayern/genehmigung-fuer-rueckb... [2] https://www.bayerische-staatszeitung.de/staatszeitung/politik/detailansicht-politik/artikel/rueckbau-von-bayerns-atommeilern-geht-schnell-voran.html#topPosition https://www.bayerische-staatszeitung.de/staatszeitung/politi... [3] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castor_(Kerntechnik) https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castor_(Kerntechnik) [4] https://www.br.de/nachrichten/bayern/tennet-stellt-suedostlink-trasse-von-pfatter-nach-landshut-vor,Tbs9hdI https://www.br.de/nachrichten/bayern/tennet-stellt-suedostli... [5] https://www.amprion.net/Presse/Presse-Detailseite_2667.html https://www.amprion.net/Presse/Presse-Detailseite_2667.html

closewith 1y ago
Biblis A is used for syn-con, which I presume is what the person the GP spoke to was talking about.
- mschuster91 1y ago
  Ah, that explains things - I only looked at the history of the last three in Emsland, Neckarwestheim and Ohu because I assumed that everything else was far too much dismantled to still be operational in any form or shape. Thanks!
riedel 1y ago
Had to read up on it as it was only hear say. But apparently RWE did this after Biblis was shut down [0] . They were already deconstructing other parts and the generators were in the non-nuclear part. No clue about other sites though [0] https://www.rwe.com/presse/rwe-power/2019-02-27-kraftwerk-biblis-erfolgreiche-netzstutzung-mit-dem-phasenschieber-beendet/ https://www.rwe.com/presse/rwe-power/2019-02-27-kraftwerk-bi...

b3orn 1y ago

> I also learned from him that a lot German nuclear facilities are still running there generators only as weight to stabilize the network The term for this is synchronous condenser. According to the system stability report 2023 [0] there were three of these in Germany in 2023 (source is in german, the term you're looking for is rotierender Phasenschieber). It is not clear if these are converted generators, most likely they are not former nuclear power plants, but likely located at the sites of former coal power plants because of the existing grid nodes. For the future this is a concept that is investigated to provide reactive power, in that case from former coal power plants. [0]: https://www.bundesnetzagentur.de/DE/Fachthemen/ElektrizitaetundGas/NEP/Strom/Systemstabilitaet/Systemstabilitaetsbericht.pdf https://www.bundesnetzagentur.de/DE/Fachthemen/Elektrizitaet...