5 ms·

You're also not listening. It won't work. There is no reality where it works. We all know this and pretend otherwise. Everyone on this forum with hundreds of t

by dgfitz 1y ago

You're also not listening. It won't work. There is no reality where it works. We all know this and pretend otherwise. Everyone on this forum with hundreds of thousands to millions of dollars in the bank will just stop working. Who pays for the UBI? It just will not work, there is no path forward where it can.

FpUser 1y ago
>"Everyone on this forum with hundreds of thousands to millions of dollars in the bank will just stop working." Why would UBI stop the category from working? From my personal perspective - I am an independent, make good money, have savings and work on my own terms and schedule. I just can't imagine stopping doing what I do and loose the income and freedom it gives me for some meager $1000 or so a month.
- dgfitz 1y ago
  * lose I wish this forum had a !remindme, it will not work. Everyone knows it will not work. It really is a fun idea and I wish it would work. It will not work.
AnimalMuppet 1y ago
That's a different claim than the one you made in reply to hedora. There, you claimed post-Covid inflation as evidence, despite the fact that it didn't disprove hedora's position at all. Here, you claim (without any proof) that everyone will stop working. Even people with millions in the bank, who are working now, will stop working... because they get an extra $1000 a month? You could be right, but I'd like more than a bald statement that "it is so" before I believe you...
dagw 1y ago
If you have millions of dollars in the bank, you can invest frugally and get more than UBI off of interest/dividends today. If you're not happy with just that and still working, you won't be happy with just UBI either.
- hedora 1y ago
  The main effect of UBI getting people to not work is that it raises the bar for working from “I don’t want to live outdoors and starve” to “you are paying me more than my time is worth”. People that use ubi to quit their jobs mostly end up investing their time in things like additional education, higher paying (per hour) part time positions or entrepreneurship.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
insane_dreamer 1y ago
> There is no reality where it works. except for all the trials already done that show that it _does_ work
- AnimalMuppet 1y ago
  I don't think there has been a trial that shows what happens if you do it, permanently, for everyone, and raise taxes enough to pay for it. I don't agree with dgfitz's dogmatic "it will not work". But I don't agree with your claim, either. There has never been a city- or state-wide trial, let alone a national one, that increased taxes to pay for it. So under actual conditions, no, we don't have evidence that it works.
  - dragonwriter 1y ago
    Where is even the theoretical argument that raising taxes in a progressive manner to pay for it will adversely effect the way it works?
    - AnimalMuppet 1y ago
      hedora's proposal, upstream, was for a flat tax.
  - insane_dreamer 1y ago
    I agree there have not been any permanent trials (wouldn't be a trial, then). However, we were discussing whether "it works" or not, in terms of the impact on society (i.e., "nobody will work anymore!", etc.), not how it would be paid for, which is an important but separate question. Raising taxes is only one mechanism. There's also reduced spending (the defense budget is now approaching $1T). Its seems there are two opposite arguments taking place: 1) AI will eventually displace a very large number of jobs and there are no ideas emerging as to what new industries will appear to provide jobs for the displaced (and that is because the new industry would have to be something that AI is incapable of doing cost-effectively, and we only need so many barbers), and 2) people who are capable of working but do not work should not be receiving compensation from the government. I honestly don't know if UBI is the solution (I prefer means-tested BI rather than UBI but I concede that means-tested is problematic). But there had better be a solution, because 1) above is inevitable (probably not in the next 5 years, but in the next 25 years, certainly).

by dgfitz 1y ago

FpUser 1y ago

>"Everyone on this forum with hundreds of thousands to millions of dollars in the bank will just stop working." Why would UBI stop the category from working? From my personal perspective - I am an independent, make good money, have savings and work on my own terms and schedule. I just can't imagine stopping doing what I do and loose the income and freedom it gives me for some meager $1000 or so a month.

dgfitz 1y ago
* lose I wish this forum had a !remindme, it will not work. Everyone knows it will not work. It really is a fun idea and I wish it would work. It will not work.

AnimalMuppet 1y ago

That's a different claim than the one you made in reply to hedora. There, you claimed post-Covid inflation as evidence, despite the fact that it didn't disprove hedora's position at all. Here, you claim (without any proof) that everyone will stop working. Even people with millions in the bank, who are working now, will stop working... because they get an extra $1000 a month? You could be right, but I'd like more than a bald statement that "it is so" before I believe you...

dagw 1y ago

If you have millions of dollars in the bank, you can invest frugally and get more than UBI off of interest/dividends today. If you're not happy with just that and still working, you won't be happy with just UBI either.

hedora 1y ago
The main effect of UBI getting people to not work is that it raises the bar for working from “I don’t want to live outdoors and starve” to “you are paying me more than my time is worth”. People that use ubi to quit their jobs mostly end up investing their time in things like additional education, higher paying (per hour) part time positions or entrepreneurship.
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]

insane_dreamer 1y ago

> There is no reality where it works. except for all the trials already done that show that it _does_ work

AnimalMuppet 1y ago
I don't think there has been a trial that shows what happens if you do it, permanently, for everyone, and raise taxes enough to pay for it. I don't agree with dgfitz's dogmatic "it will not work". But I don't agree with your claim, either. There has never been a city- or state-wide trial, let alone a national one, that increased taxes to pay for it. So under actual conditions, no, we don't have evidence that it works.
- dragonwriter 1y ago
  Where is even the theoretical argument that raising taxes in a progressive manner to pay for it will adversely effect the way it works?
  - AnimalMuppet 1y ago
    hedora's proposal, upstream, was for a flat tax.
- insane_dreamer 1y ago
  I agree there have not been any permanent trials (wouldn't be a trial, then). However, we were discussing whether "it works" or not, in terms of the impact on society (i.e., "nobody will work anymore!", etc.), not how it would be paid for, which is an important but separate question. Raising taxes is only one mechanism. There's also reduced spending (the defense budget is now approaching $1T). Its seems there are two opposite arguments taking place: 1) AI will eventually displace a very large number of jobs and there are no ideas emerging as to what new industries will appear to provide jobs for the displaced (and that is because the new industry would have to be something that AI is incapable of doing cost-effectively, and we only need so many barbers), and 2) people who are capable of working but do not work should not be receiving compensation from the government. I honestly don't know if UBI is the solution (I prefer means-tested BI rather than UBI but I concede that means-tested is problematic). But there had better be a solution, because 1) above is inevitable (probably not in the next 5 years, but in the next 25 years, certainly).