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> Has there been value delivered proportional to the money spent at reasonable market rates? If not, then money was wasted via incompetence, pocketed via corrup

> Has there been value delivered proportional to the money spent at reasonable market rates? If not, then money was wasted via incompetence, pocketed via corruption, or both. I'm going to unpack this a little. The second sentence does not actually follow from the question asked by the first sentence. "Value" is a loaded term as used here. Not all value is economic. Most value has a degree of judgement involved. I may consider an outcome to be of high value where you see the outcome as low value, and vice versa. "Reasonable market rates" is a peculiar term to use when speaking about things government does. There are things we want as a society that would not be adequately replaced by market solutions. Roads, for example. Your answer to your question contains a logic error due to the language choices of the question. You disagree with the value versus the cost spent. That does not mean there was corruption. It just means you disagree. Other people can hold the opinion that the value was worth the cost. I am not claiming that there is 0 corruption or waste ever in government. I am saying that there has been an effort to create a perception that there is far more corruption and waste than actually exists. That in turn is being used as justification for taking a wide variety of actions that would be hard to sell otherwise.

FirmwareBurner 1y ago
>"Value" is a loaded term as used here. Not all value is economic. Most value has a degree of judgement involved. No it isn't. Most value CAN be objectively measured. I'll give you examples. US outspends all the other developed nations at healthcare, education, childcare and yet is behind them all in actual results with poor education, high infant motility and lower life expectancy. That's what waste and corruption does. Germany beats France at military spending and yet it's military is significantly less capable than France's. Waste and corruption. I could go on. If someone tells you the value of their work can't be objectively measured, it's because they're dodging accountability and they have their hand in your pocket and wish to keep it that way. >There are things we want as a society that would not be adequately replaced by market solutions. Roads, for example. Fine, let's go with roads. If the "market price" price for road construction is 6 million/KM, but your government signed a deal with a contractor for a basic road at 20+ million per KM without any objective justification of why the price hike, then the taxpayers are being taken for a ride, called waste and corruption. And I'm not even saying anything out of the ordinary. Such grifts are the norm in plenty of countries.
- sjsdaiuasgdia 1y ago
  What would you say determines the market price of a kilometer of "basic road"?
  - FirmwareBurner 1y ago
    What do you define the market price of someone roofing your house? Same shizz different scale.
- sorcerer-mar 1y ago
  > That's what waste and corruption does. Assuming the goal of said systems are the same between countries: but they're not. In the US, the goal of the healthcare system is to produce profit. So the simpler explanation is that the healthcare system consumes more money and produces less healthcare because it spends more to produce profit.
  - FirmwareBurner 1y ago
    >Assuming the goal of said systems are the same between countries: but they're not. And that's not corruption like I was saying?
    - sorcerer-mar 1y ago
      Uhh... no? Not in the traditional sense of the word, no. It's how we've decided to architect our system. "Corruption" in this context typically refers to an element of dishonesty or theft and so on. If you mean "corrupt" in the ethical sense, then sure, kind of?
      - FirmwareBurner 1y ago
        So the US taxpayers voluntarily asked their government to give them expensive and shitty health insurance instead of healthcare?
potato3732842 1y ago
If value is such a nebulous term then that should make your job easier not harder because it lets you make comparisons to the "dysfunctional bigco" end of things. The people you are arguing with think government is inefficient. They will be more than satisfied with an honest accounting that results in a conclusion that the government spends 5/10/20% more per result than private sector. Just having an actual number one can be confident in would be a huge step forward. But outside the most narrowly scoped of comparisons you people rebuff any such request for all but the most narrowly scoped accounting of expenditures with a bunch of hand waving which just makes it look like the problem is even worse.
- ImPostingOnHN 1y ago
  > But outside the most narrowly scoped of comparisons you people rebuff any such request for all but the most narrowly scoped accounting of expenditures with a bunch of hand waving which just makes it look like the problem is even worse. Setting aside whatever you mean by "you people", since we are all people, hopefully all on Team 'Make Things Better', and don't need to be divisive: That seems to be what was requested here OF those making the claim that the accounting currently shows an unworkable level* of waste, requested BY those unconvinced of the claim. * - Or perhaps I misread the magnitude being claimed. Could you clarify with a number, please?
- sjsdaiuasgdia 1y ago
  > it lets you make comparisons to the "dysfunctional bigco" end of things. I don't like to compare governments and companies, personally. They're very different kinds of structures with (hopefully) quite different goals. They probably shouldn't look much like each other.

FirmwareBurner 1y ago

>"Value" is a loaded term as used here. Not all value is economic. Most value has a degree of judgement involved. No it isn't. Most value CAN be objectively measured. I'll give you examples. US outspends all the other developed nations at healthcare, education, childcare and yet is behind them all in actual results with poor education, high infant motility and lower life expectancy. That's what waste and corruption does. Germany beats France at military spending and yet it's military is significantly less capable than France's. Waste and corruption. I could go on. If someone tells you the value of their work can't be objectively measured, it's because they're dodging accountability and they have their hand in your pocket and wish to keep it that way. >There are things we want as a society that would not be adequately replaced by market solutions. Roads, for example. Fine, let's go with roads. If the "market price" price for road construction is 6 million/KM, but your government signed a deal with a contractor for a basic road at 20+ million per KM without any objective justification of why the price hike, then the taxpayers are being taken for a ride, called waste and corruption. And I'm not even saying anything out of the ordinary. Such grifts are the norm in plenty of countries.

sjsdaiuasgdia 1y ago
What would you say determines the market price of a kilometer of "basic road"?
- FirmwareBurner 1y ago
  What do you define the market price of someone roofing your house? Same shizz different scale.
sorcerer-mar 1y ago
> That's what waste and corruption does. Assuming the goal of said systems are the same between countries: but they're not. In the US, the goal of the healthcare system is to produce profit. So the simpler explanation is that the healthcare system consumes more money and produces less healthcare because it spends more to produce profit.
- FirmwareBurner 1y ago
  >Assuming the goal of said systems are the same between countries: but they're not. And that's not corruption like I was saying?
  - sorcerer-mar 1y ago
    Uhh... no? Not in the traditional sense of the word, no. It's how we've decided to architect our system. "Corruption" in this context typically refers to an element of dishonesty or theft and so on. If you mean "corrupt" in the ethical sense, then sure, kind of?
    - FirmwareBurner 1y ago
      So the US taxpayers voluntarily asked their government to give them expensive and shitty health insurance instead of healthcare?

potato3732842 1y ago

If value is such a nebulous term then that should make your job easier not harder because it lets you make comparisons to the "dysfunctional bigco" end of things. The people you are arguing with think government is inefficient. They will be more than satisfied with an honest accounting that results in a conclusion that the government spends 5/10/20% more per result than private sector. Just having an actual number one can be confident in would be a huge step forward. But outside the most narrowly scoped of comparisons you people rebuff any such request for all but the most narrowly scoped accounting of expenditures with a bunch of hand waving which just makes it look like the problem is even worse.

ImPostingOnHN 1y ago
> But outside the most narrowly scoped of comparisons you people rebuff any such request for all but the most narrowly scoped accounting of expenditures with a bunch of hand waving which just makes it look like the problem is even worse. Setting aside whatever you mean by "you people", since we are all people, hopefully all on Team 'Make Things Better', and don't need to be divisive: That seems to be what was requested here OF those making the claim that the accounting currently shows an unworkable level* of waste, requested BY those unconvinced of the claim. * - Or perhaps I misread the magnitude being claimed. Could you clarify with a number, please?
sjsdaiuasgdia 1y ago
> it lets you make comparisons to the "dysfunctional bigco" end of things. I don't like to compare governments and companies, personally. They're very different kinds of structures with (hopefully) quite different goals. They probably shouldn't look much like each other.