5 ms·
I'm reminded of this famous quote from the Nuremberg Diary, and the casualness of how it seems to have been stated: Göring: Why, of course, the people don't wa
by z2 1y ago
I'm reminded of this famous quote from the Nuremberg Diary, and the casualness of how it seems to have been stated:
Göring: Why, of course, the people don't want war. Why would some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best that he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece? Naturally, the common people don't want war; neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in America, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship.
Gilbert: There is one difference. In a democracy the people have some say in the matter through their elected representatives, and in the United States only Congress can declare wars.
Göring: Oh, that is all well and good, but, voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_Diary https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_Diary
- mc32 1y agoI'm not sure if this quote takes into account mob rule. Take ethnic strife in Myanmar or in Africa or rural Mexico, etc. It's not governments doing it --it's mostly grass roots after a grievance is unaddressed and explodes.
- dennis_jeeves2 1y ago>grievance is unaddressed and explodes The grievance is also often created by the govt.
- aspenmayer 1y agoAfrican fears and ethnic strife were invented out of whole cloth by colonial powers to divide and conquer the local populace. Myanmar I am less familiar with, but I believe that region has been under military junta rule for decades, and I believe religious tensions have been stoked by both the military rulers and armed insurgent revolutionary groups to rally support for their side.
- mc32 1y agoAfrican tribes were the same as any other tribe on earth. They fought each other, they had animus against other, etc. even before Europeans explored Africa, even before Arab colonization too.
- aspenmayer 1y agoSure, but the specific conflicts between Hutus and Tutsis and many others were orchestrated by colonial powers and that is a fact of the matter. I’m not sure what you are referring to, but it doesn’t contradict my statement.
- Spooky23 1y agoThe scale of the colonial horrors inflicted on various regions of Africa is poorly told, and was the pregame for the horrors of WW2 in many ways. The British and Germans “innovated” with the concentration camp in the early 20th century, for example. The most obvious depravity was Leopold’s depredations of the Congo, but many many examples exist. The generational trauma on society is hard to fathom. And of course the arming and covert intervention of Soviet & western proxies during the Cold War fueled unrest and hostility.
- mc32 1y agoIs that not the history of just about every country of consequence? They were conquered and vanquished multiple times with wealth extracted by foreign powers throughout history? Africa, Asia, Europe, Asia Minor, etc? No continent was free from this history. Have you read the history of Asia before the age of exploration or the history of Europe before the age of exploration or the history of the middle east of the Caucasus before the age of exploration? Every one of them experienced things similar to what you mention. Subjugation, atrocities, imposition of culture, etc. and lest you think Europe is free of this behavior I would reference our modern day Balkan region.
- aspenmayer 1y agoIf there are guilty parties, we ought to name them, not stay silent out of a misguided sense of justice simply because other guilty parties go unnamed. How is your comment indistinguishable from whataboutism?
- relaxing 1y agoAh yes, the country of Africa.
- mc32 1y ago“in”
- relaxing 1y agoSo? Africa is not a single place you can generalize across in regards to sources of ethnic strife or anything else.
- mc32 1y agoI think one can, if one were to look at recent and current conflicts there: https://www.iiss.org/online-analysis/online-analysis/2022/11/acs-2022-sub-saharan-africa/ https://www.iiss.org/online-analysis/online-analysis/2022/11...
- z2 1y agoYeah, 1984 and its source material tend to reduce everything to monolithic dystopias, which indeed was relevant and happens when top down power bends truth. But maybe enough pent-up bottom up emotion can also override reason and decay truth the same way. It feels like the latter is also closer to a lot of the world today, we're seeing more chaotic competition for attention than some centrally planned dictation of truth.
- kmeisthax 1y ago[dead]
- Spooky23 1y agoThat’s your interpretation from high school. The reality is it’s about information control, and an all powerful state was the most understandable model for Orwell. Today, carefully crafted messages lead people to self-select propaganda. The stereotype of the MAGA uncle is the result of an appeal to fear, resentment and nostalgia.
- jaybrendansmith 1y agoEveryone must have a MAGA uncle. I myself have two, my kids have one, perhaps two. They are the ones we always had questions about, and would often introduce strange ideas at the table, like a return to the gold standard, or joining Amway, or something. It's scary how easily they bought into it, and how easily manipulated they are. I would imagine they would be easily hypnotized or something. They seem to be the ones that want someone else to tell them what to think, or what to do. My sons call them 'NPCs', and I think perhaps they are somewhat correct. What do we do about the NPCs?
- mionhe 1y agoI worry that both sides of the political spectrum are doing the same thing: de-humanizing people with different points of view. I'm sure everyone knows what Voltaire said about this: “I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.” Is there any chance we can return to the idea that people can disagree with us without being dead to us afterward?
- anigbrowl 1y agoCivil war is a whole different animal. The quote above refers to international war.
- peterlada 1y agoHe said leaders not governments. Like religious leaders, ethnic leaders, etc.
- morkalork 1y agoIt's like a cold splash of water reading these things. Crisp, clear and refreshing. It's not complicated, dressed up in euphemisms or anything. Just the cold, calculated truth by which those in power view their subjects.
- clarkmoody 1y agoAlso maps nicely to the Covid experience.