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It's unclear whether the carve out for prisoners applies to just "involuntary servitude" or "slavery and involuntary servitude." In practice, only "involuntary

It's unclear whether the carve out for prisoners applies to just "involuntary servitude" or "slavery and involuntary servitude." In practice, only "involuntary servitude" has been used. "Community service" - unpaid - is a very common low level sentence. The eighth and fourteenth amendments almost certainly forbid enslavement - permanently becoming human property - as a criminal sentence. Even before the 13th amendment, enslavement as a punishment not common, if it happened at all. There is almost no case law on the 13th amendment. There are no legal slaves in the US today, and there have not been since the 19th century.

tristan957 1y ago
If we pay people 40 cents an hour just to say they aren't slaves, they they are slaves for all intents and purposes. They are put in poor working conditions working for for-profit companies, making much less than minimum wage. How is it legal for the State to not provide sunscreen or shade for inmates doing outdoor manual labor? https://theappeal.org/louisiana-prisoners-demand-an-end-to-modern-day-slavery/ https://theappeal.org/louisiana-prisoners-demand-an-end-to-m...
- freedomben 1y ago
  I don't disagree that 40 cents an hour is ludicrous and is only one notch above slavery, but I do think it worth pointing out that the work for 40 cents per hour is voluntary (i.e. they can quit or choose not to accept the work), whereas "slavery" is very much not.
  - larkost 1y ago
    In many cases the work is not really voluntary, there are sanctions for not taking it. Prisoners in some states are regularly put into solitary confinement for not "volunteering" to work these jobs (a punishment that some areas deem torture). With that amount of coercion I can't see them as voluntary, and so the slavery label is awfully close to the mark.
    - freedomben 1y ago
      In those situations, I would agree that is pretty damn close to the slavery mark. I've worked with a lot of prison facilities though in many states across the US and a few international, and have never seen that. That's not to say it doesn't happen of course, but out of curiosity do you (or anyone else) know of any facilities/jurisdictions that do that?
      - tristan957 1y ago
        There is an example in this NPR article. https://www.npr.org/2023/11/13/1210564359/slavery-prison-forced-labor-movement https://www.npr.org/2023/11/13/1210564359/slavery-prison-for...
- brulard 1y ago
  A prisoner costs taxpayers around $50k a year on average in US. If their "take-home" wage is $0.40/h, it may still be generous.
  - const_cast 1y ago
    That cost should be taken by our government and the tax payer, as a disincentive to locking people up. If you can lock someone up and get close to free labor for it, then we're going to start locking a lot of people up. I mean, it's free labor. Which is why we used to give people 20 years for possession of marijuana. What, you think it's just a coincidence we were throwing primarily black Americans away in prison for ludicrous amounts of time where they'll spend their days picking cotton? That's what happens when imprisoning people is cheap.
    - pyuser583 1y ago
      Do you think prisoners are literally picking cotton?
      - const_cast 1y ago
        I don’t think, they literally are. Feel free to look it up. Our prison labor systems in the south are direct descendants of Jim Crow era America.
      - tristan957 1y ago
        In some states like Louisiana, picking cotton is still something some prisoners do.
    - brulard 1y ago
      If a prisoner costs $50k a year, and "if" he would work a job where he would make $50k a year and if he didn't receive a dime from it, does it look to you like a free labor? He merely makes up for what he costs the system, not taking into consideration the likely damage that he has done that made him end up in prison in the first place. And I don't expect prisoners to have anywhere close to $50k salary jobs.

tristan957 1y ago

If we pay people 40 cents an hour just to say they aren't slaves, they they are slaves for all intents and purposes. They are put in poor working conditions working for for-profit companies, making much less than minimum wage. How is it legal for the State to not provide sunscreen or shade for inmates doing outdoor manual labor? https://theappeal.org/louisiana-prisoners-demand-an-end-to-modern-day-slavery/ https://theappeal.org/louisiana-prisoners-demand-an-end-to-m...

freedomben 1y ago
I don't disagree that 40 cents an hour is ludicrous and is only one notch above slavery, but I do think it worth pointing out that the work for 40 cents per hour is voluntary (i.e. they can quit or choose not to accept the work), whereas "slavery" is very much not.
- larkost 1y ago
  In many cases the work is not really voluntary, there are sanctions for not taking it. Prisoners in some states are regularly put into solitary confinement for not "volunteering" to work these jobs (a punishment that some areas deem torture). With that amount of coercion I can't see them as voluntary, and so the slavery label is awfully close to the mark.
  - freedomben 1y ago
    In those situations, I would agree that is pretty damn close to the slavery mark. I've worked with a lot of prison facilities though in many states across the US and a few international, and have never seen that. That's not to say it doesn't happen of course, but out of curiosity do you (or anyone else) know of any facilities/jurisdictions that do that?
    - tristan957 1y ago
      There is an example in this NPR article. https://www.npr.org/2023/11/13/1210564359/slavery-prison-forced-labor-movement https://www.npr.org/2023/11/13/1210564359/slavery-prison-for...
brulard 1y ago
A prisoner costs taxpayers around $50k a year on average in US. If their "take-home" wage is $0.40/h, it may still be generous.
- const_cast 1y ago
  That cost should be taken by our government and the tax payer, as a disincentive to locking people up. If you can lock someone up and get close to free labor for it, then we're going to start locking a lot of people up. I mean, it's free labor. Which is why we used to give people 20 years for possession of marijuana. What, you think it's just a coincidence we were throwing primarily black Americans away in prison for ludicrous amounts of time where they'll spend their days picking cotton? That's what happens when imprisoning people is cheap.
  - pyuser583 1y ago
    Do you think prisoners are literally picking cotton?
    - const_cast 1y ago
      I don’t think, they literally are. Feel free to look it up. Our prison labor systems in the south are direct descendants of Jim Crow era America.
    - tristan957 1y ago
      In some states like Louisiana, picking cotton is still something some prisoners do.
  - brulard 1y ago
    If a prisoner costs $50k a year, and "if" he would work a job where he would make $50k a year and if he didn't receive a dime from it, does it look to you like a free labor? He merely makes up for what he costs the system, not taking into consideration the likely damage that he has done that made him end up in prison in the first place. And I don't expect prisoners to have anywhere close to $50k salary jobs.