7 ms·

Hopefully in a few decades the last of the people who think that using respectful discourse means no fun can be had will be gone and we can stop rehashing these

Hopefully in a few decades the last of the people who think that using respectful discourse means no fun can be had will be gone and we can stop rehashing these threads. You're contributing to something that runs on billions of devices across the world and is maintained by people around the world of all types. If you can't describe your code, your reasons, and your notes politely, do better.

javcasas 1y ago
There are two types of people: the ones that write the code, find the bugs (including hardware ones), find the bad design decisions (including the ones they wrote themselves)... and the ones that complain that they found a swearword in the source code they never see because compilation step. Or as they say in the army: do, lead, or get out of the way.
- Arainach 1y ago
  There are far more than two types; all of the most effective programmers I've ever worked with can do everything you mentioned and write professionally. If we have to boil it down to two types, however, I'd split it as "people who think they can do everything themselves and only the code matters" and "people who build effective teams capable of far more than themselves solo", and it's the second group that does the most impressive things. Being professional and respectful is quite beneficial for that group.
  - javcasas 1y ago
    It's great that you can do/lead and write professionally. But, in any case, writing professionally shouldn't take priority over doing/leading. Otherwise we wouldn't have the Linux kernel; and I bet the swearing guy behind it got more stuff done and made a bigger difference than the combination of the most effective programmers you have ever met.
    - dullcrisp 1y ago
      Yeah, if only Linux could be built by one swearing guy with no external contributors like Linux instead of being a bland swear-free corporate hellscape like Linux then it could be successful like Linux.
    - wat10000 1y ago
      False dichotomy. "Writing professionally" is also known as "communicating effectively" and it is part of doing/leading. Linus made an enormous impact, certainly. He'd have had an even bigger impact if he was less of a caustic dick. And before you say that there's a tradeoff involved and that genius technical people are just that way, look up Berkson's paradox.
      - squigz 1y ago
        I'm sure many of us have worked with that type of person who is very good at what they do, but also a massive asshole, and then people put up with it, because, well, that's just part of being a genius (as an aside: this sentiment is often applied to other disciplines too; see, Max Verstappen in F1 or Magnus Carlson in chess.) I learned long ago that no matter how good they are, it's not worth it.
        wat10000 1y ago
        Agreed. And one thing people seem to miss in this argument is that people can change, and generally will if they're in an environment that facilitates it. If a skilled programmer gets constant pushback because they act like a jerk, they'll probably figure out how to behave.
      - mrguyorama 1y ago
        Linus is a great example actually, because people pointed out he was being too much of an asshole, and he eventually agreed, and he reduced the toxicity of his rhetoric, but you can bet if the situation called for it, he would still use vulgarity to get his point across. If you totally ban profanity or vulgarity, all you do is force other words to take up the slack of what people use those words for, and therefore increase ambiguity. Don't lazily add profanity to the code base because you are a child (ie no, don't use "fuck1" as a variable name FFS) but if there is something truly insane going on, I'm going to write "This is fucking magic" in the code, and my coworkers will know to give that code the respect it deserves. Consider the fast inverse square root code. Most people only know it because "what the fuck" in a comment. Intensifiers are useful in communication. https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PrecisionFStrike https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PrecisionFStrike Your code SHOULD have few swears because few situations deserve an intensifier like that, but some situations absolutely call for it.
  - holowoodman 1y ago
    I would say that a swearword where a swearword is due is actually effective and professional. Dancing around an issue and trying to be polite wastes time and effort, a well-placed swearword directs eyes, ears and effort to where they need to be.
    - Arainach 1y ago
      It doesn't. There are words explicitly to draw attention. There's TODO and IMPORTANT and WARNING. A swear is inferior to any of these.
- danparsonson 1y ago
  Total non-sequitur - it's entirely possible to be highly productive and also moderate your written language for a wider audience. What a ridiculous distinction to make.
  - cool_beanz 1y ago
    In a world where code is written more and more by LLMs, these random human generated comments might hold anthropological value in some future. Think of it akin to us studying cave paintings, wondering what whoever left their handprint on the cave wall was thinking when they did it. So these ancient lines of code might be studied in some future by our descendants, or whatever form we'll take. Interesting to perceive the author's frustration with said bit of code. By comparison LLM generated code is neat and tidy with clean and clear comments. Plenty of that to go around for the future. No need to suck the soul out of every bit of code we currently have.
- rascul 1y ago
  > do, lead, or get out of the way. lead, follow, or get out of the way
thrwwy451 1y ago
It happens to run on billions of devices, after corporations realized they can profit from "a (free) operating system (just a hobby, won't be big and professional like gnu)". > and is maintained by people around the world of all types. You seem to think that the whole world shares your definition of "polite". After living in a few quite different countries, I have to disagree. The diversity out there is huge. There's no point trying to solve this "problem", it's an impossible task.
- perching_aix 1y ago
  > It happens to run on billions of devices, after corporations realized they can profit from "a (free) operating system (just a hobby, won't be big and professional like gnu)" While hordes of people peddle that everyone should be using it like gospel. > After living in a few quite different countries, I have to disagree. Yeah dude, tell us about all the countries where cursing isn't impolite and unprofessional.
  - vlovich123 1y ago
    While in formal professional settings it is rarer (and swearing at each other vs about a thing is generally always impolite) Russia, Australia, Iceland, Scandinavian countries generally have fewer issues inherently treating swearing as impolite vs a strong expression of emotion. There’s even a comic about how common swearing is in a professional coding environment: https://www.osnews.com/story/19266/wtfsm/ https://www.osnews.com/story/19266/wtfsm/
  - koverstreet 1y ago
    > While hordes of people peddle that everyone should be using it like gospel. You don't get that kind of widespread usage by mere faddism and preaching. A lot of people had to find it to be genuinely better than the alternatives. Maybe the unprofessional hackers knew what they were doing after all.
    - perching_aix 1y ago
      Not consistently mutually exclusive. I consider Linux awful, but that doesn't mean I'd advise us to migrate to Windows Server.
rfrey 1y ago
I contend that you are slipping in the words "respectful" and "professional" and assuming the benefit of their positive connotations without an argument that simply omitting the occasional well-placed curse is indeed "professional". I think so-called "professional" speech - which I'd call bland and often ineffective speech - is professional in the same way that a suit and tie is professional. It's a uniform to ensure nobody stands out, and the corporation can absorb everybody's personality, like flour incorporated into bread dough. White bread, no seeds.
- Arainach 1y ago
  Cursing adds nothing to the code. "// Stupid fucking hack" is worse than "stupid hack" (more characters while conveying no extra information) and much worse than "work around Lotus 123 leap year calculation bug"
  - nilamo 1y ago
    Similarly, "stupid hack" adds nothing that just "hack" doesn't say. And in that case, why have a comment at all? The code is likely obviously hacky. At least I can have a laugh while looking at the hack someone came up with...
    - Nicook 1y ago
      I contend there is a significant difference between a stupid hack, and a better one. The negative adjective is meaningful in the comment.
      - kelnos 1y ago
        Meaningful, perhaps, but not at all precise enough to be understood by everyone who might read your code in the future. Many people will understand the difference between "hack" (or even "clever hack") and "stupid hack" in a variety of different ways, many of them not in the way you intended. When I was in my 20s I would write comments like that, but now what I'm in my 40s I see them as entirely useless, aside from a way for the author to blow off steam. Code that others have to read is not the place for that.
mystified5016 1y ago
Yeah, you tell 'em! Anyone who doesn't conform to Corporate Culture and treat the dress code and code of conduct as their own personal Bible, upheld even on their time off, they're all terrible engineers and should go work on some script kiddie project.
koverstreet 1y ago
Personally, I think the nicest thing I can do, for my users, and for the engineers who come after me, is to write code that works, and write it in such a way that other people can figure out what it does without wanting to gouge their own eyes out. Clearly, we do not have the same goals.
- Perizors 1y ago
  It is not mutually exclusive tho
  - koverstreet 1y ago
    It's about priorities. I value clear and direct communication, and getting the job done, way more than mere politeness. Politeness is not the end goal. It is a means to that goal, if and when it enables people to communicate more effectively and with less friction.
kps 1y ago
> do better I find that expression far more offensive than ‘fuck’ or ‘shit’. Similarly (and non-exhaustively): ‘bad take’; ‘not a good look’; ‘this ain't it’; ‘… not the … you think it is’; ‘…, actually’. They're all personal insults. “This code is crap” is fine; “You're crap” is not.
- falcor84 1y ago
  As I see it, there's nothing offensive about "do better" - it's just asking the person to not repeat the same (ostensibly misguided) thing they did before. On the other hand, there's Kratos's “Don't be sorry, be better”, which did hit me hard when I reached that part in God of War 2018. That one hit me on a very personal level.
  - AlexandrB 1y ago
    "Do better" when used in an online debate forecloses discussion. It implies that the one saying "do better" is the authority on what "better" is. What if I disagree?
    - falcor84 1y ago
      Then you reply with "Because of the following reasons, doing better must entail the following actions...", rather than argue against the need to do better
      - briangriffinfan 1y ago
        It's annoying in the same way gish gallopping is annoying: you're giving me nothing except resistance in a way you've formulated to appear as though it's in good faith, even though it's not.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
dogleash 1y ago
>people who think that using respectful discourse means no fun can be had will be gone It's not zero fun, but everyone understands it's a sign the vibes will be up-right, right? edit: that's not to say you don't want that, but that's what it is
- dogleash 1y ago
  *up-tight (too late to edit)
pwdisswordfishz 1y ago
Forget "fun". Profanity is a signal of honesty. Which I much prefer to hiding behind patronizing, obfuscatory euphemisms like "verifying the security of your connection" and processes that diffuse responsibility out of existence.
AlexandrB 1y ago
> do better No. This condescending tone is what really needs to go away. It reminds me of the 90s right-wing, religious puritanism about swears in music and movies just repurposed for a secular audience.
autoexec 1y ago
> Hopefully in a few decades the last of the people who think that using respectful discourse means no fun can be had will be gone and we can stop rehashing these threads. More likely, in a few decades what you consider today to be "respectful discourse" will be seen as extremely offensive and the latest generation of fearful moralistic pearl-clutchers will be hoping that in the near future it's people like you who will be soon be gone. As long as people keep looking for new ways to be offended and continue wanting to police the language of others these kinds of topics will continue.

javcasas 1y ago

There are two types of people: the ones that write the code, find the bugs (including hardware ones), find the bad design decisions (including the ones they wrote themselves)... and the ones that complain that they found a swearword in the source code they never see because compilation step. Or as they say in the army: do, lead, or get out of the way.

Arainach 1y ago
There are far more than two types; all of the most effective programmers I've ever worked with can do everything you mentioned and write professionally. If we have to boil it down to two types, however, I'd split it as "people who think they can do everything themselves and only the code matters" and "people who build effective teams capable of far more than themselves solo", and it's the second group that does the most impressive things. Being professional and respectful is quite beneficial for that group.
- javcasas 1y ago
  It's great that you can do/lead and write professionally. But, in any case, writing professionally shouldn't take priority over doing/leading. Otherwise we wouldn't have the Linux kernel; and I bet the swearing guy behind it got more stuff done and made a bigger difference than the combination of the most effective programmers you have ever met.
  - dullcrisp 1y ago
    Yeah, if only Linux could be built by one swearing guy with no external contributors like Linux instead of being a bland swear-free corporate hellscape like Linux then it could be successful like Linux.
  - wat10000 1y ago
    False dichotomy. "Writing professionally" is also known as "communicating effectively" and it is part of doing/leading. Linus made an enormous impact, certainly. He'd have had an even bigger impact if he was less of a caustic dick. And before you say that there's a tradeoff involved and that genius technical people are just that way, look up Berkson's paradox.
    - squigz 1y ago
      I'm sure many of us have worked with that type of person who is very good at what they do, but also a massive asshole, and then people put up with it, because, well, that's just part of being a genius (as an aside: this sentiment is often applied to other disciplines too; see, Max Verstappen in F1 or Magnus Carlson in chess.) I learned long ago that no matter how good they are, it's not worth it.
      - wat10000 1y ago
        Agreed. And one thing people seem to miss in this argument is that people can change, and generally will if they're in an environment that facilitates it. If a skilled programmer gets constant pushback because they act like a jerk, they'll probably figure out how to behave.
    - mrguyorama 1y ago
      Linus is a great example actually, because people pointed out he was being too much of an asshole, and he eventually agreed, and he reduced the toxicity of his rhetoric, but you can bet if the situation called for it, he would still use vulgarity to get his point across. If you totally ban profanity or vulgarity, all you do is force other words to take up the slack of what people use those words for, and therefore increase ambiguity. Don't lazily add profanity to the code base because you are a child (ie no, don't use "fuck1" as a variable name FFS) but if there is something truly insane going on, I'm going to write "This is fucking magic" in the code, and my coworkers will know to give that code the respect it deserves. Consider the fast inverse square root code. Most people only know it because "what the fuck" in a comment. Intensifiers are useful in communication. https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PrecisionFStrike https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PrecisionFStrike Your code SHOULD have few swears because few situations deserve an intensifier like that, but some situations absolutely call for it.
- holowoodman 1y ago
  I would say that a swearword where a swearword is due is actually effective and professional. Dancing around an issue and trying to be polite wastes time and effort, a well-placed swearword directs eyes, ears and effort to where they need to be.
  - Arainach 1y ago
    It doesn't. There are words explicitly to draw attention. There's TODO and IMPORTANT and WARNING. A swear is inferior to any of these.
danparsonson 1y ago
Total non-sequitur - it's entirely possible to be highly productive and also moderate your written language for a wider audience. What a ridiculous distinction to make.
- cool_beanz 1y ago
  In a world where code is written more and more by LLMs, these random human generated comments might hold anthropological value in some future. Think of it akin to us studying cave paintings, wondering what whoever left their handprint on the cave wall was thinking when they did it. So these ancient lines of code might be studied in some future by our descendants, or whatever form we'll take. Interesting to perceive the author's frustration with said bit of code. By comparison LLM generated code is neat and tidy with clean and clear comments. Plenty of that to go around for the future. No need to suck the soul out of every bit of code we currently have.
rascul 1y ago
> do, lead, or get out of the way. lead, follow, or get out of the way

thrwwy451 1y ago

It happens to run on billions of devices, after corporations realized they can profit from "a (free) operating system (just a hobby, won't be big and professional like gnu)". > and is maintained by people around the world of all types. You seem to think that the whole world shares your definition of "polite". After living in a few quite different countries, I have to disagree. The diversity out there is huge. There's no point trying to solve this "problem", it's an impossible task.

perching_aix 1y ago
> It happens to run on billions of devices, after corporations realized they can profit from "a (free) operating system (just a hobby, won't be big and professional like gnu)" While hordes of people peddle that everyone should be using it like gospel. > After living in a few quite different countries, I have to disagree. Yeah dude, tell us about all the countries where cursing isn't impolite and unprofessional.
- vlovich123 1y ago
  While in formal professional settings it is rarer (and swearing at each other vs about a thing is generally always impolite) Russia, Australia, Iceland, Scandinavian countries generally have fewer issues inherently treating swearing as impolite vs a strong expression of emotion. There’s even a comic about how common swearing is in a professional coding environment: https://www.osnews.com/story/19266/wtfsm/ https://www.osnews.com/story/19266/wtfsm/
- koverstreet 1y ago
  > While hordes of people peddle that everyone should be using it like gospel. You don't get that kind of widespread usage by mere faddism and preaching. A lot of people had to find it to be genuinely better than the alternatives. Maybe the unprofessional hackers knew what they were doing after all.
  - perching_aix 1y ago
    Not consistently mutually exclusive. I consider Linux awful, but that doesn't mean I'd advise us to migrate to Windows Server.

rfrey 1y ago

I contend that you are slipping in the words "respectful" and "professional" and assuming the benefit of their positive connotations without an argument that simply omitting the occasional well-placed curse is indeed "professional". I think so-called "professional" speech - which I'd call bland and often ineffective speech - is professional in the same way that a suit and tie is professional. It's a uniform to ensure nobody stands out, and the corporation can absorb everybody's personality, like flour incorporated into bread dough. White bread, no seeds.

Arainach 1y ago
Cursing adds nothing to the code. "// Stupid fucking hack" is worse than "stupid hack" (more characters while conveying no extra information) and much worse than "work around Lotus 123 leap year calculation bug"
- nilamo 1y ago
  Similarly, "stupid hack" adds nothing that just "hack" doesn't say. And in that case, why have a comment at all? The code is likely obviously hacky. At least I can have a laugh while looking at the hack someone came up with...
  - Nicook 1y ago
    I contend there is a significant difference between a stupid hack, and a better one. The negative adjective is meaningful in the comment.
    - kelnos 1y ago
      Meaningful, perhaps, but not at all precise enough to be understood by everyone who might read your code in the future. Many people will understand the difference between "hack" (or even "clever hack") and "stupid hack" in a variety of different ways, many of them not in the way you intended. When I was in my 20s I would write comments like that, but now what I'm in my 40s I see them as entirely useless, aside from a way for the author to blow off steam. Code that others have to read is not the place for that.

mystified5016 1y ago

Yeah, you tell 'em! Anyone who doesn't conform to Corporate Culture and treat the dress code and code of conduct as their own personal Bible, upheld even on their time off, they're all terrible engineers and should go work on some script kiddie project.

koverstreet 1y ago

Personally, I think the nicest thing I can do, for my users, and for the engineers who come after me, is to write code that works, and write it in such a way that other people can figure out what it does without wanting to gouge their own eyes out. Clearly, we do not have the same goals.

Perizors 1y ago
It is not mutually exclusive tho
- koverstreet 1y ago
  It's about priorities. I value clear and direct communication, and getting the job done, way more than mere politeness. Politeness is not the end goal. It is a means to that goal, if and when it enables people to communicate more effectively and with less friction.

kps 1y ago

> do better I find that expression far more offensive than ‘fuck’ or ‘shit’. Similarly (and non-exhaustively): ‘bad take’; ‘not a good look’; ‘this ain't it’; ‘… not the … you think it is’; ‘…, actually’. They're all personal insults. “This code is crap” is fine; “You're crap” is not.

falcor84 1y ago
As I see it, there's nothing offensive about "do better" - it's just asking the person to not repeat the same (ostensibly misguided) thing they did before. On the other hand, there's Kratos's “Don't be sorry, be better”, which did hit me hard when I reached that part in God of War 2018. That one hit me on a very personal level.
- AlexandrB 1y ago
  "Do better" when used in an online debate forecloses discussion. It implies that the one saying "do better" is the authority on what "better" is. What if I disagree?
  - falcor84 1y ago
    Then you reply with "Because of the following reasons, doing better must entail the following actions...", rather than argue against the need to do better
    - briangriffinfan 1y ago
      It's annoying in the same way gish gallopping is annoying: you're giving me nothing except resistance in a way you've formulated to appear as though it's in good faith, even though it's not.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]

dogleash 1y ago

>people who think that using respectful discourse means no fun can be had will be gone It's not zero fun, but everyone understands it's a sign the vibes will be up-right, right? edit: that's not to say you don't want that, but that's what it is

dogleash 1y ago
*up-tight (too late to edit)

pwdisswordfishz 1y ago

Forget "fun". Profanity is a signal of honesty. Which I much prefer to hiding behind patronizing, obfuscatory euphemisms like "verifying the security of your connection" and processes that diffuse responsibility out of existence.

AlexandrB 1y ago

> do better No. This condescending tone is what really needs to go away. It reminds me of the 90s right-wing, religious puritanism about swears in music and movies just repurposed for a secular audience.

autoexec 1y ago

> Hopefully in a few decades the last of the people who think that using respectful discourse means no fun can be had will be gone and we can stop rehashing these threads. More likely, in a few decades what you consider today to be "respectful discourse" will be seen as extremely offensive and the latest generation of fearful moralistic pearl-clutchers will be hoping that in the near future it's people like you who will be soon be gone. As long as people keep looking for new ways to be offended and continue wanting to police the language of others these kinds of topics will continue.