8 ms·

As somebody who went through nearly the exact same experience with a different game several years ago, it's really disappointing (and unhelpful) to see so much

by tomku 14y ago

As somebody who went through nearly the exact same experience with a different game several years ago, it's really disappointing (and unhelpful) to see so much emphasis put on the game. Starcraft 2 didn't destroy his life, his lack of self-control did. There are millions of people playing Starcraft 2 worldwide who did not do what he did. Taking action to overcome the Starcraft addiction is a good first step, but it won't do him any good if he lapses into addictive behavior in another aspect of his life. It sounds like the poster is a really motivated guy, and lionhearted is correct in his sibling post here that that can be a strong force for productivity if you can master it. I really hope that Tom manages to do so, because at 21, he's got his whole (non-destroyed) life ahead of him. Losing two years to an addiction is a big deal, but it's something you can overcome and possibly even come out stronger from. Edit: Since I talked a little bit about my own circumstances in a reply, I might as well go into detail here, particularly since it looks like the actual linked post might be a lie/exaggeration. I played Final Fantasy XI (an MMO, unlike most games in the series) from the fall of 2004 until the fall of 2009, and World of Warcraft from then until January of 2011. During that time, my life outside of the game basically stopped. I dropped out of college, I moved back in with my parents, I stopped programming and reading, which were my main interests before the MMOs came along. For a few of the years in the middle I didn't work or even really leave the house. Eventually I got pushed out because my parents knew that what I was doing wasn't a healthy lifestyle, but I did just enough to adapt and got a job an an apartment and continued gaming. What pushed me to quitting wasn't any sudden realization, but just a slow-building frustration with the whole idea of MMORPGs. Eventually it hit critical mass and I quit FFXI, thinking that the problem was just that I needed a better game. A year of WoW convinced me otherwise, and I've been putting my life back together since then. I (obviously) don't mind talking about it now, and I'd be glad to answer questions if anyone has them.

tomrod 14y ago
>What pushed me to quitting wasn't any sudden realization, but just a slow-building frustration with the whole idea of MMORPGs Same thing built up with Minecraft for me. What a lost amount of time :/. So fun at the time, but there is only so many Legos I can afford to spend time on.
- alttab 14y ago
  I stay away from any game with "craft" in the name - knowing that I have a hard time not not playing video games with no end. Then very recently I had my second back surgery. I purchased Minecraft for Xbox 360 as I knew I'd be able to lay in bed and play for hours on end, which is what I'd have to do to recover anyway. Well, a week and a half later I pretty much mastered it, and purchased the PC version because it had more features. I've spent A LOT of time playing this game recently. Then I got onto PVP and Faction servers. Playing with others and the thrill it brings to blow up a base with a TNT cannon and steal everyone's shit is very addicting. I knew I was getting into trouble when I bought the original Xbox version. In a moment of weakness I purchased the PC version and the number of hours I spend playing is not very healthy. Luckily for me, my wife will kill/leave me before it ever gets really bad, so eventually I'll get pulled away and bored with it. I usually do. I hope. :)
  - mechanical_fish 14y ago
    Sounds like an entirely appropriate use of the technology. It also sheds a completely different light on the analogy between addictive games and addictive painkillers. ;)
    - alttab 14y ago
      You're right. Minecraft for Xbox is codeine while the PC version is clearly oxycodone. PvP and Raid servers is like using an IV.
  - deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]
- StuffMaster 14y ago
  I've always considered WoW and Minecraft to be drugs...and I don't do drugs. Simple as that.
  - tomrod 14y ago
    Apt comparison.
dredmorbius 14y ago
You could make the same argument that a lack of self-control destroys the lives of heroin addicts. That self-control is based, however, on biological and physiological pathways. Dopamine receptors, and anomalies with the dopamine system, in particular, can leave people vulnerable to various addictive habits: http://www.people.co.uk/lifestyle/real-life/2010/10/03/ms-turned-me-into-a-compulsive-gambler-102039-22603246/ http://www.people.co.uk/lifestyle/real-life/2010/10/03/ms-tu...
- potatolicious 14y ago
  The difference between Starcraft and heroin is that the vast majority of Starcraft users do not become addicts. In fact, only a very, very small portion of users do - heroin has no claims to the same. This also brings social gaming in as a concern - what is the moral stance on games what have been specifically and deliberately engineered with said biological and psychological pathways in mind, with addiction as an intended outcome as opposed to an accidental and marginal one?
  - CarlTheAwesome 14y ago
    It's morally wrong to trick someone biological and psychological in order for them to play games in order to generate income for a game company. But I think there's a way to balance between making users like the game thus generate income for the company and making users biologically and psychologically rely on the game.
    - Karunamon 14y ago
      >It's morally wrong to trick someone biological and psychological in order for them to play games in order to generate income for a game company. Biologically perhaps, psychologically no. This "trick" you speak of is the sense of progression and rewards given that makes a game fun to play.
    - dromidas 14y ago
      In the end, is there really any difference between making a game that is fun and a game that is addicting? I really don't think there is even if they went in with the idea of "lets make this game addicting". I've never once seen a game that is not fun, but is addicting. Although my friends have said Master of Orion 3 fits that description, but I never actually saw them ever play it so I think it was a joke.
CarlTheAwesome 14y ago
I was addicted to DOTA just like Tom and wasted 1 whole year on it, and almost dropped out of school(thanks to loose quality control in China's higher education system, but I'm not sure it's a good thing). I got out -- and I'm the first one out -- my little DOTA addicted circle who did it. What got me out is programming, I learned PHP/Java/Python/Javascript/Android etc... since I quited playing DOTA all day. I still play DOTA, but very controllable and sometimes didn't play it in months.
mrbonner 14y ago
How in the world, somebody with that kind of martial arts training, got in the best fitness of his life became addict to alcohol and weed and games? Doesn't martial arts requires tons of disciplines?
- Shenglong 14y ago
  Martial arts, like most things in life, optimally require two things: talent and discipline. Rarely though, do you find someone with both. Yet with either one, you can get pretty good at something.
- danielweber 14y ago
  It looks like he was very very good at immersing himself in his training, and he did the exact same thing with Starcraft 2.
- routerbox 14y ago
  He was addicted to martial arts. If you think about it for a second it makes sense. The martial arts thing was the same as the starcraft thing, just a different subject. If you consider that he has an obsessive disorder that presents as addiction, you can put those two things under the same umbrella. Obsession can seem like discipline.
  - scott_s 14y ago
    Obsession can seem like discipline. I've long suspected they're the same thing - or, at least, on a spectrum together. I know that I just don't "feel right" if I work less than I want to, or if I skip out on a workout session I had planned on. And I know that with myself and other people I train jiu-jitsu with, we will train with injuries that rationally we know we should not. When we talk about it amongst ourselves, we say things like "I just can't sit on the couch doing nothing." I suspect this "discipline" to get back to training is similar to obsession and compulsion.
mechanical_fish 14y ago
This kind of thing is way older than Starcraft, or electronic games for that matter. One of my physics professors apparently had a similar experience with bridge. If I remember correctly, his bio said that he was a Life Master at age 21. You apparently have to play one hell of a lot of bridge hands to become a Life Master, and keep in mind that this was before the internet. When I asked him, he reported that basically bridge took over his whole life for several years. And then he recovered and apparently had a pleasant career and got tenure and everything. And now I must control my essay-writing addiction and go build some software. ;)
liedra 14y ago
I was also probably addicted to FFXI (played from the release of CoP til 2009ish), so hey fellow ex-FFXIer. I pulled myself out of it when I realised I wasn't getting any of my PhD done and then went and managed to pull that off with the remaining time I had left. Now I won't play any MMOs because I'm concerned that I might fall back into old habits. I play D3 and other games that I can dip in and out of, but no mass organised stuff like FFXI needed. The addiction for me was more of the organisation of stuff - I co-ran one of the most successful linkshells (guild) on my server for a while, and was in charge of many raids - I loved it and was good at it. I'd probably make a great middle manager or something, heh. (No thanks.) Anyway yeah, it's possible to "get out" and still reclaim your life. I have a tenured position at a university now and completed two successful postdocs since I quit. I don't regret having played though - I met some excellent people through FFXI, many of whom are still very close friends today. It's just a matter of having the ability to self assess where you are and the guts to pull yourself out of it if you realise that there's an issue. I know I can do that now, but I also don't want the temptation to fall back in.
- tomku 14y ago
  It's a small (virtual) world... when I read your username I thought it sounded familiar, and now I'm pretty sure that I've been a jerk to you on IRC before! Congrats on quitting FFXI and finishing your PhD, and greetings from a certain former #BG member with a four letter name starting with z. /me prepares himself for public humiliation if he's wrong
  - liedra 14y ago
    Yeah, I think you were on multivaders too, right? Heh, small world.
rsanchez1 14y ago
You could see the pattern even before he got to the part about video games. He let martial arts training take control of his life. He became obsessed with training, ignored everything that didn't have to do with training, went to southeast Asia just for training. What caused him to really hit rock bottom was settling for a habit that didn't benefit him at all physically, playing Starcraft 2. But now it sounds like his time is split between both martial arts training and Starcraft 2, he's giving up control to both of his obsessions. It's really sad and I really hope he can pull through and have a less-obsessive life.

by tomku 14y ago

tomrod 14y ago

>What pushed me to quitting wasn't any sudden realization, but just a slow-building frustration with the whole idea of MMORPGs Same thing built up with Minecraft for me. What a lost amount of time :/. So fun at the time, but there is only so many Legos I can afford to spend time on.

alttab 14y ago
I stay away from any game with "craft" in the name - knowing that I have a hard time not not playing video games with no end. Then very recently I had my second back surgery. I purchased Minecraft for Xbox 360 as I knew I'd be able to lay in bed and play for hours on end, which is what I'd have to do to recover anyway. Well, a week and a half later I pretty much mastered it, and purchased the PC version because it had more features. I've spent A LOT of time playing this game recently. Then I got onto PVP and Faction servers. Playing with others and the thrill it brings to blow up a base with a TNT cannon and steal everyone's shit is very addicting. I knew I was getting into trouble when I bought the original Xbox version. In a moment of weakness I purchased the PC version and the number of hours I spend playing is not very healthy. Luckily for me, my wife will kill/leave me before it ever gets really bad, so eventually I'll get pulled away and bored with it. I usually do. I hope. :)
- mechanical_fish 14y ago
  Sounds like an entirely appropriate use of the technology. It also sheds a completely different light on the analogy between addictive games and addictive painkillers. ;)
  - alttab 14y ago
    You're right. Minecraft for Xbox is codeine while the PC version is clearly oxycodone. PvP and Raid servers is like using an IV.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
StuffMaster 14y ago
I've always considered WoW and Minecraft to be drugs...and I don't do drugs. Simple as that.
- tomrod 14y ago
  Apt comparison.

dredmorbius 14y ago

You could make the same argument that a lack of self-control destroys the lives of heroin addicts. That self-control is based, however, on biological and physiological pathways. Dopamine receptors, and anomalies with the dopamine system, in particular, can leave people vulnerable to various addictive habits: http://www.people.co.uk/lifestyle/real-life/2010/10/03/ms-turned-me-into-a-compulsive-gambler-102039-22603246/ http://www.people.co.uk/lifestyle/real-life/2010/10/03/ms-tu...

potatolicious 14y ago
The difference between Starcraft and heroin is that the vast majority of Starcraft users do not become addicts. In fact, only a very, very small portion of users do - heroin has no claims to the same. This also brings social gaming in as a concern - what is the moral stance on games what have been specifically and deliberately engineered with said biological and psychological pathways in mind, with addiction as an intended outcome as opposed to an accidental and marginal one?
- CarlTheAwesome 14y ago
  It's morally wrong to trick someone biological and psychological in order for them to play games in order to generate income for a game company. But I think there's a way to balance between making users like the game thus generate income for the company and making users biologically and psychologically rely on the game.
  - Karunamon 14y ago
    >It's morally wrong to trick someone biological and psychological in order for them to play games in order to generate income for a game company. Biologically perhaps, psychologically no. This "trick" you speak of is the sense of progression and rewards given that makes a game fun to play.
  - dromidas 14y ago
    In the end, is there really any difference between making a game that is fun and a game that is addicting? I really don't think there is even if they went in with the idea of "lets make this game addicting". I've never once seen a game that is not fun, but is addicting. Although my friends have said Master of Orion 3 fits that description, but I never actually saw them ever play it so I think it was a joke.

CarlTheAwesome 14y ago

I was addicted to DOTA just like Tom and wasted 1 whole year on it, and almost dropped out of school(thanks to loose quality control in China's higher education system, but I'm not sure it's a good thing). I got out -- and I'm the first one out -- my little DOTA addicted circle who did it. What got me out is programming, I learned PHP/Java/Python/Javascript/Android etc... since I quited playing DOTA all day. I still play DOTA, but very controllable and sometimes didn't play it in months.

mrbonner 14y ago

How in the world, somebody with that kind of martial arts training, got in the best fitness of his life became addict to alcohol and weed and games? Doesn't martial arts requires tons of disciplines?

Shenglong 14y ago
Martial arts, like most things in life, optimally require two things: talent and discipline. Rarely though, do you find someone with both. Yet with either one, you can get pretty good at something.
danielweber 14y ago
It looks like he was very very good at immersing himself in his training, and he did the exact same thing with Starcraft 2.
routerbox 14y ago
He was addicted to martial arts. If you think about it for a second it makes sense. The martial arts thing was the same as the starcraft thing, just a different subject. If you consider that he has an obsessive disorder that presents as addiction, you can put those two things under the same umbrella. Obsession can seem like discipline.
- scott_s 14y ago
  Obsession can seem like discipline. I've long suspected they're the same thing - or, at least, on a spectrum together. I know that I just don't "feel right" if I work less than I want to, or if I skip out on a workout session I had planned on. And I know that with myself and other people I train jiu-jitsu with, we will train with injuries that rationally we know we should not. When we talk about it amongst ourselves, we say things like "I just can't sit on the couch doing nothing." I suspect this "discipline" to get back to training is similar to obsession and compulsion.

mechanical_fish 14y ago

This kind of thing is way older than Starcraft, or electronic games for that matter. One of my physics professors apparently had a similar experience with bridge. If I remember correctly, his bio said that he was a Life Master at age 21. You apparently have to play one hell of a lot of bridge hands to become a Life Master, and keep in mind that this was before the internet. When I asked him, he reported that basically bridge took over his whole life for several years. And then he recovered and apparently had a pleasant career and got tenure and everything. And now I must control my essay-writing addiction and go build some software. ;)

liedra 14y ago

I was also probably addicted to FFXI (played from the release of CoP til 2009ish), so hey fellow ex-FFXIer. I pulled myself out of it when I realised I wasn't getting any of my PhD done and then went and managed to pull that off with the remaining time I had left. Now I won't play any MMOs because I'm concerned that I might fall back into old habits. I play D3 and other games that I can dip in and out of, but no mass organised stuff like FFXI needed. The addiction for me was more of the organisation of stuff - I co-ran one of the most successful linkshells (guild) on my server for a while, and was in charge of many raids - I loved it and was good at it. I'd probably make a great middle manager or something, heh. (No thanks.) Anyway yeah, it's possible to "get out" and still reclaim your life. I have a tenured position at a university now and completed two successful postdocs since I quit. I don't regret having played though - I met some excellent people through FFXI, many of whom are still very close friends today. It's just a matter of having the ability to self assess where you are and the guts to pull yourself out of it if you realise that there's an issue. I know I can do that now, but I also don't want the temptation to fall back in.

tomku 14y ago
It's a small (virtual) world... when I read your username I thought it sounded familiar, and now I'm pretty sure that I've been a jerk to you on IRC before! Congrats on quitting FFXI and finishing your PhD, and greetings from a certain former #BG member with a four letter name starting with z. /me prepares himself for public humiliation if he's wrong
- liedra 14y ago
  Yeah, I think you were on multivaders too, right? Heh, small world.

rsanchez1 14y ago

You could see the pattern even before he got to the part about video games. He let martial arts training take control of his life. He became obsessed with training, ignored everything that didn't have to do with training, went to southeast Asia just for training. What caused him to really hit rock bottom was settling for a habit that didn't benefit him at all physically, playing Starcraft 2. But now it sounds like his time is split between both martial arts training and Starcraft 2, he's giving up control to both of his obsessions. It's really sad and I really hope he can pull through and have a less-obsessive life.