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Has any country ever functioned like that? The idea seems absurd. Of course you should be held legally accountable for what you say. You can see trivial example

Has any country ever functioned like that? The idea seems absurd. Of course you should be held legally accountable for what you say. You can see trivial examples in American culture with defamation law, laws against calling for violence, laws about when and where you're allowed to protest. Agree with it or not, we don't have a right to say what we want with no consequence. The devil as always is in the details. But people need to actually agree what sort of values we should have represented as a people to write those laws, and america has never figured out how to do that without either violence or a massive river of cash to distract us from each other. For an instance of how bad free speech can get, look no further than the role RTLM played in the genocide of the Tutsi in 1994.

sorcerer-mar 1y ago
> You can see trivial examples in American culture with defamation law, laws against calling for violence, laws about when and where you're allowed to protest. Defamation is extremely hard to stick in the US. You also are allowed in general to call for violence in the US. Incitement is very specific and not merely "calling for violence." > we don't have a right to say what we want with no consequence. Yes, in the US you absolutely are allowed to say what you want with no state-sanctioned consequence. There are extremely, extremely narrow exceptions. Way, way narrower than most people on either side of the political aisle intuit. For an instance of how great free speech can get, look no further than the role the 1st Amendment has played in creating a highly adaptive society that, despite the internal chaos, conquers most of its challenges.
- MangoToupe 1y ago
  I understand quibbling about specifics, but I'm still unconvinced "free speech" is a meaningful term or that it's necessary for industrialization with private investment. It's a bone given to morons to get them to not demand real rights. I would also not ever willingly live in a society with truly free speech. > Yes, in the US you absolutely are allowed to say what you want with no state-sanctioned consequence. When has this ever really benefited us? We complain endlessly but fix nothing. What value have unanswered complaints?
  - sorcerer-mar 1y ago
    wat. You're going to have to more fully flesh out whatever train of thought you just showed the caboose of.
    - MangoToupe 1y ago
      Sorry, can you illustrate which point you were confused by or which aspects of my sentiments you felt weren't fleshed out? On rereading I think i'm perfectly clear. Do you feel like one of your points didn't get the attention it deserves? I'm happy to comply—if I didn't respond to a point, it's because I don't want to indicate disrespect, and as a result I have nothing left to say. But I would be overjoyed to tell you my actual thoughts if you can bear the social conflict. If you don't want to or do not feel equipped to reply to my thoughts you can do just that—not reply.
      - sorcerer-mar 1y ago
        Ah apologies, you edited to expand on an extremely cryptic comment. > but I'm still unconvinced "free speech" is a meaningful term It is demonstrably a meaningful term given that it has prevented the imprisonment of countless people who have been unfriendly towards the state or other powers that be at various times in our history. You can look for "landmark 1st Amendment cases" for an extremely partial list. In reality the bulk of the power is in the deterrent effect against the state pursuing action against private entities for expressing themselves, and the obverse effect that private parties aren't afraid of the state when expressing themselves. > or that it's necessary for industrialization with private investment. Not sure what you're getting at here, but it doesn't matter whether it's "necessary" for anything. It's in the Constitution. If you want to debate changing the Constitution you can go ahead and do that, but I won't spend my time engaging with it. > When has this ever really benefited us? Every day! It is literally benefiting you right now. You're aware that these very comments, in a regime with weaker protections, would put you at risk? And that even if the odds are remote, you would experience a chilling effect on sharing your thoughts with me here? This all sounded pretty abstract to me too until I spent some time in a truly authoritarian country. I went on a date and casually asked the lady "so what's it like living under [ head of state ]?" What was a warm and friendly evening immediately turned as she glanced over her shoulder and completely clammed up, hurrying us onto a different topic. That reaction sent chills down my spine, and if you're an American and have zero concept of what any of this stuff means in the real world, it would've sent chills down yours too.

sorcerer-mar 1y ago

> You can see trivial examples in American culture with defamation law, laws against calling for violence, laws about when and where you're allowed to protest. Defamation is extremely hard to stick in the US. You also are allowed in general to call for violence in the US. Incitement is very specific and not merely "calling for violence." > we don't have a right to say what we want with no consequence. Yes, in the US you absolutely are allowed to say what you want with no state-sanctioned consequence. There are extremely, extremely narrow exceptions. Way, way narrower than most people on either side of the political aisle intuit. For an instance of how great free speech can get, look no further than the role the 1st Amendment has played in creating a highly adaptive society that, despite the internal chaos, conquers most of its challenges.

MangoToupe 1y ago
I understand quibbling about specifics, but I'm still unconvinced "free speech" is a meaningful term or that it's necessary for industrialization with private investment. It's a bone given to morons to get them to not demand real rights. I would also not ever willingly live in a society with truly free speech. > Yes, in the US you absolutely are allowed to say what you want with no state-sanctioned consequence. When has this ever really benefited us? We complain endlessly but fix nothing. What value have unanswered complaints?
- sorcerer-mar 1y ago
  wat. You're going to have to more fully flesh out whatever train of thought you just showed the caboose of.
  - MangoToupe 1y ago
    Sorry, can you illustrate which point you were confused by or which aspects of my sentiments you felt weren't fleshed out? On rereading I think i'm perfectly clear. Do you feel like one of your points didn't get the attention it deserves? I'm happy to comply—if I didn't respond to a point, it's because I don't want to indicate disrespect, and as a result I have nothing left to say. But I would be overjoyed to tell you my actual thoughts if you can bear the social conflict. If you don't want to or do not feel equipped to reply to my thoughts you can do just that—not reply.
    - sorcerer-mar 1y ago
      Ah apologies, you edited to expand on an extremely cryptic comment. > but I'm still unconvinced "free speech" is a meaningful term It is demonstrably a meaningful term given that it has prevented the imprisonment of countless people who have been unfriendly towards the state or other powers that be at various times in our history. You can look for "landmark 1st Amendment cases" for an extremely partial list. In reality the bulk of the power is in the deterrent effect against the state pursuing action against private entities for expressing themselves, and the obverse effect that private parties aren't afraid of the state when expressing themselves. > or that it's necessary for industrialization with private investment. Not sure what you're getting at here, but it doesn't matter whether it's "necessary" for anything. It's in the Constitution. If you want to debate changing the Constitution you can go ahead and do that, but I won't spend my time engaging with it. > When has this ever really benefited us? Every day! It is literally benefiting you right now. You're aware that these very comments, in a regime with weaker protections, would put you at risk? And that even if the odds are remote, you would experience a chilling effect on sharing your thoughts with me here? This all sounded pretty abstract to me too until I spent some time in a truly authoritarian country. I went on a date and casually asked the lady "so what's it like living under [ head of state ]?" What was a warm and friendly evening immediately turned as she glanced over her shoulder and completely clammed up, hurrying us onto a different topic. That reaction sent chills down my spine, and if you're an American and have zero concept of what any of this stuff means in the real world, it would've sent chills down yours too.