6 ms·

Iron nitride permanent magnets made with DIY ball mill [video]

109 points by xqcgrek2 1y ago

wolfi1 1y ago
good luck getting ammonium nitrate without being visited by the police (at least here in Europe)
- Calwestjobs 1y ago
  yeah, but point is more like that we do not need hard to refine ( that is why are they called rare earths ) materials from china, if those magnets were strong as neodymium ones. which they are not in video. -- problem with chemistry is most of these things are easily made in garage. For example Slovak military is training disposal of homemade explosives / chemicals by watching NurdRage videos ;) https://youtu.be/Zybj-mi1FP0?si=KGMUJj5l5NUt2egh&t=68 https://youtu.be/Zybj-mi1FP0?si=KGMUJj5l5NUt2egh&t=68 or this simple technology from 1890 used in different way is helping helping Europe to be self sufficient with energy: https://www.tue.nl/en/research/institutes/eindhoven-institute-for-renewable-energy-systems/iron-power https://www.tue.nl/en/research/institutes/eindhoven-institut...
- nullc 1y ago
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZYWpZYuRKc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZYWpZYuRKc
- metalman 1y ago
  not that big a deal, but you do have to register and have basic security, ammonium nitrate is by todays standards just one step up from black powder, and if it's a proper company with mechanical and chemical engineers signing off then it's literaly just paper work.All in all industrial type experimenting involves avoiding exuberant exothermic reactions and dramatic kinetic events, with or without an electrical component, just about everyone involved has a story, and there are plenty of injuries and fatalities. One of the hard parts of bootstraping any industrial process is having people who have the knowledge and experience to train people in how to do things and not get hurt, it's not "saftey" as much as survival skills.
  - HeyLaughingBoy 1y ago
    > ammonium nitrate is by todays standards just one step up from black powder I thought that was potassium nitrate. Which I bought a bottle of on Amazon when I was curing a ham.
    - ridgeguy 1y ago
      Didn't know about the use for meat curing. I've routinely bought KNO3 for stump removal.
      - HeyLaughingBoy 1y ago
        hmmm. I have lots of stumps, and didn't use that much from the bottle. I think there's some old diesel in a can somewhere...
        Loughla 1y ago
        Use aluminum powder instead. Is less messy and easier to set off. And it's more fun because it's more of a pop than a push.
  - ahazred8ta 1y ago
    As Kevin Kelly said about tribal lore: "In many cases the only way to do an experiment safely is to find a more experienced person to help. This is not book-learning, it's your life at stake. There is an unbroken chain of these people leading right back to the first guy who survived, and you want to be part of that chain."
- impossiblefork 1y ago
  Farmers work with hundred kilo bags of the stuff.
  - wolfi1 1y ago
    farmers yes, I wanted to cool some stuff with it, no chance
    - impossiblefork 1y ago
      and you can't just buy it for your garden then?
      - numpad0 1y ago
        Fertilizers and a ball mill in a garage is just the classic direct highway route from nothing to pipe bombs, so there are going to be checkpoints along the way.
        amy214 1y ago
        Fertilizers is what we call "a gateway chemical" first thing you're putting some ammonium nitrate on your crops to make more than break-even this year, next thing you know it's a U-Haul parked up in Oklahoma city. We need to have common sense fertilizer control laws. Mostly it will be police who can use fertilizer, sometimes though we'll let a private detective (ex-police) use fertilizer.
- nancyminusone 1y ago
  What does your country use for its instant cold packs?
lokimedes 1y ago
I love this guy. Totally living out my physicist-tinker dreams.
- showmexyz 1y ago
  His videos/experiments are really really good. Some of other good videos- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UIqhpxul_og https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UIqhpxul_og https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bR9EN3kUlfg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bR9EN3kUlfg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oj4tRnLKN6U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oj4tRnLKN6U
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
Animats 1y ago
So what happened with the startup, Niron? [1] They've been trying to commercialize this for years. [1] https://www.nironmagnetics.com/ https://www.nironmagnetics.com/
- londons_explore 1y ago
  The fact they don't have a 'buy one of our magnets now, $10' button tells me that the tech doesn't actually work.
  - aredox 1y ago
    The last thread of informed comments here on this: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42995429 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42995429
    - pfdietz 1y ago
      Yes, that deflated my optimism.
  - ralphonzathew 1y ago
    Iron nitride is much more useful as a thin film coating. Bulk magnet tech just isn't there.
  - scythe 1y ago
    The only report of a bulk Fe16N2 magnet I remember reading about used a 2 GPa (300 kpsi) diamond anvil to compact the powder. I can see why that might be economically impractical right now. Also there was a bombshell paper that came out claiming synthesis of bulk L10-FeNi which was later retracted [1] and may have put a temporary damper on interest in Fe16N2. It remains unclear which material will be available first. 1: https://advanced.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/advs.202408796 https://advanced.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/ad...
    - londons_explore 1y ago
kragen 1y ago
My bookmark from May 28 says: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6XIgdS1rzs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6XIgdS1rzs #Applied-Science #video on #bootstrapping “insanely powerful” planetary ball mill grinder to make α'' iron nitride filled epoxy for magnets, which did work somewhat; he tested it in a 1.6-tesla vibrating sample magnetometer he built using a lock-in amplifier to plot its B–H curve. Hopefully this summary is useful to others. On the topic of alternatives to rare-earth magnets, their most important use is probably electrical machines (motors/generators, and switched reluctance electrical machines can supposedly have power densities comparable to rare-earth-magnet permanent-magnet electrical machines, and you can build them out of just punched electrical steel, copper or aluminum wire, and insulator, just like a line-frequency power transformer. (I suspect Metglas would work better than electrical steel, without requiring any strategic materials, but might be impractically expensive.) Some relevant bookmarks from September 22: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAhF45AtsgA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAhF45AtsgA #video by #Akio showing his Arduino-driven switched reluctance motor #electronics control board and working motor #hardware https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvw6k4ppUZU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvw6k4ppUZU #video about "SynRM" switched reluctance motors made out of sheets with slots punched out to follow field lines. Low-quality AI voiceover from #Lesics. (You can actually build SRMs out of non-laminated mild steel and speaker wire or whatever, but I think they won't be efficient.) Another related bookmark from today: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAQexymmt64 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAQexymmt64 lecture #video from 02012 (? or 02019?) by JR Hendershot about #switched-reluctance motors (“reluctance synchronous motors”) mentioning ABB’s new #SynRM product line (17–350kW), mentioning higher torque density than induction motors (which use the exact same stator design) and lower cost than permanent-magnet electrical machines as key advantages. Cites a price spike in neodymium as a key reason for interest in the area, which makes me think it’s from 02012 rather than 02019, when it was uploaded to YouTube. It actually says that “reluctance synchronous” motors are different from “switched reluctance” motors. Shows little webs in the stamping to hold the flux carriers together in the transversely laminated anisotropy rotor. Shows ABB’s plot of efficiency over its product line, ranging from 88% at 1kW rated power up to 97.5% at 700kW, because of the missing ohmic losses in the rotor relative to an induction motor. Boglietti and Pastorelli’s paper from 02008 reports 17% higher torque for an SRM (RSM) version of an existing induction motor. Shows some asterisk-shaped switched-reluctance rotors (using higher frequencies) and contrasts with RSMs’ trippy rotor design (using the same inverters as for an induction motor). Also has some nice electronics schematics. “The key to the improvements in efficiency and power factor lies in the inductance ratio or the saliency ratio in the d [direct] & q [quadrature] axes.”
JKCalhoun 1y ago
He's like the old "Amateur Scientist" column from Scientific American magazine come to YouTube.
bkraz 1y ago
I always enjoy seeing one of my videos on HN! Let me know if you have questions.
- pierrekin 1y ago
  Not strictly related to this video - sorry about that - but I have some ideas of how to improve the system you used to record arc welding in high quality. Do you still have the hardware? Does revisiting the project and using some signal processing to try and extract color images sound like fun? I would be excited to collaborate on this if you had energy for it!
  - bkraz 1y ago
    You should definitely contact Kron Tech (makers of the system -- let me know if you want an introduction). I have some interesting image processing videos coming up -- nothing to do with color reconstruction, but that also sounds good. My project pipeline is pretty full, but I will let you know when I am adding new ideas.
    - pierrekin 1y ago
      Thank you for your kind offer to introduce.
daveguy 1y ago
It would be interesting to compare the iron nitride magnet sample with an just epoxy + iron filings. I would expect iron to have some area between the curves because iiuc iron is able to hold a magnetic charge.
- bkraz 1y ago
  I measured the pure iron powder as well. It shows no measurable area inside the BH curve, which at first seems incorrect since the textbook retentivity value for pure iron is fairly high. The textbook may be referring to a single iron magnetic domain. In a practical sample (even a solid piece of iron, let alone powder in epoxy), there are likely many magnetic domains that cancel each other out, and "soft iron" is used commercially for the very reason that is has extremely low retentivity in bulk.

109 points by xqcgrek2 1y ago

wolfi1 1y ago

good luck getting ammonium nitrate without being visited by the police (at least here in Europe)

Calwestjobs 1y ago
yeah, but point is more like that we do not need hard to refine ( that is why are they called rare earths ) materials from china, if those magnets were strong as neodymium ones. which they are not in video. -- problem with chemistry is most of these things are easily made in garage. For example Slovak military is training disposal of homemade explosives / chemicals by watching NurdRage videos ;) https://youtu.be/Zybj-mi1FP0?si=KGMUJj5l5NUt2egh&t=68 https://youtu.be/Zybj-mi1FP0?si=KGMUJj5l5NUt2egh&t=68 or this simple technology from 1890 used in different way is helping helping Europe to be self sufficient with energy: https://www.tue.nl/en/research/institutes/eindhoven-institute-for-renewable-energy-systems/iron-power https://www.tue.nl/en/research/institutes/eindhoven-institut...
nullc 1y ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZYWpZYuRKc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZYWpZYuRKc
metalman 1y ago
not that big a deal, but you do have to register and have basic security, ammonium nitrate is by todays standards just one step up from black powder, and if it's a proper company with mechanical and chemical engineers signing off then it's literaly just paper work.All in all industrial type experimenting involves avoiding exuberant exothermic reactions and dramatic kinetic events, with or without an electrical component, just about everyone involved has a story, and there are plenty of injuries and fatalities. One of the hard parts of bootstraping any industrial process is having people who have the knowledge and experience to train people in how to do things and not get hurt, it's not "saftey" as much as survival skills.
- HeyLaughingBoy 1y ago
  > ammonium nitrate is by todays standards just one step up from black powder I thought that was potassium nitrate. Which I bought a bottle of on Amazon when I was curing a ham.
  - ridgeguy 1y ago
    Didn't know about the use for meat curing. I've routinely bought KNO3 for stump removal.
    - HeyLaughingBoy 1y ago
      hmmm. I have lots of stumps, and didn't use that much from the bottle. I think there's some old diesel in a can somewhere...
      - Loughla 1y ago
        Use aluminum powder instead. Is less messy and easier to set off. And it's more fun because it's more of a pop than a push.
- ahazred8ta 1y ago
  As Kevin Kelly said about tribal lore: "In many cases the only way to do an experiment safely is to find a more experienced person to help. This is not book-learning, it's your life at stake. There is an unbroken chain of these people leading right back to the first guy who survived, and you want to be part of that chain."
impossiblefork 1y ago
Farmers work with hundred kilo bags of the stuff.
- wolfi1 1y ago
  farmers yes, I wanted to cool some stuff with it, no chance
  - impossiblefork 1y ago
    and you can't just buy it for your garden then?
    - numpad0 1y ago
      Fertilizers and a ball mill in a garage is just the classic direct highway route from nothing to pipe bombs, so there are going to be checkpoints along the way.
      - amy214 1y ago
        Fertilizers is what we call "a gateway chemical" first thing you're putting some ammonium nitrate on your crops to make more than break-even this year, next thing you know it's a U-Haul parked up in Oklahoma city. We need to have common sense fertilizer control laws. Mostly it will be police who can use fertilizer, sometimes though we'll let a private detective (ex-police) use fertilizer.
nancyminusone 1y ago
What does your country use for its instant cold packs?

lokimedes 1y ago

I love this guy. Totally living out my physicist-tinker dreams.

showmexyz 1y ago
His videos/experiments are really really good. Some of other good videos- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UIqhpxul_og https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UIqhpxul_og https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bR9EN3kUlfg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bR9EN3kUlfg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oj4tRnLKN6U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oj4tRnLKN6U
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]

Animats 1y ago

So what happened with the startup, Niron? [1] They've been trying to commercialize this for years. [1] https://www.nironmagnetics.com/ https://www.nironmagnetics.com/

londons_explore 1y ago
The fact they don't have a 'buy one of our magnets now, $10' button tells me that the tech doesn't actually work.
- aredox 1y ago
  The last thread of informed comments here on this: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42995429 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42995429
  - pfdietz 1y ago
    Yes, that deflated my optimism.
- ralphonzathew 1y ago
  Iron nitride is much more useful as a thin film coating. Bulk magnet tech just isn't there.
- scythe 1y ago
  The only report of a bulk Fe16N2 magnet I remember reading about used a 2 GPa (300 kpsi) diamond anvil to compact the powder. I can see why that might be economically impractical right now. Also there was a bombshell paper that came out claiming synthesis of bulk L10-FeNi which was later retracted [1] and may have put a temporary damper on interest in Fe16N2. It remains unclear which material will be available first. 1: https://advanced.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/advs.202408796 https://advanced.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/ad...
  - londons_explore 1y ago

kragen 1y ago

My bookmark from May 28 says: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6XIgdS1rzs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6XIgdS1rzs #Applied-Science #video on #bootstrapping “insanely powerful” planetary ball mill grinder to make α'' iron nitride filled epoxy for magnets, which did work somewhat; he tested it in a 1.6-tesla vibrating sample magnetometer he built using a lock-in amplifier to plot its B–H curve. Hopefully this summary is useful to others. On the topic of alternatives to rare-earth magnets, their most important use is probably electrical machines (motors/generators, and switched reluctance electrical machines can supposedly have power densities comparable to rare-earth-magnet permanent-magnet electrical machines, and you can build them out of just punched electrical steel, copper or aluminum wire, and insulator, just like a line-frequency power transformer. (I suspect Metglas would work better than electrical steel, without requiring any strategic materials, but might be impractically expensive.) Some relevant bookmarks from September 22: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAhF45AtsgA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAhF45AtsgA #video by #Akio showing his Arduino-driven switched reluctance motor #electronics control board and working motor #hardware https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvw6k4ppUZU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvw6k4ppUZU #video about "SynRM" switched reluctance motors made out of sheets with slots punched out to follow field lines. Low-quality AI voiceover from #Lesics. (You can actually build SRMs out of non-laminated mild steel and speaker wire or whatever, but I think they won't be efficient.) Another related bookmark from today: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAQexymmt64 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAQexymmt64 lecture #video from 02012 (? or 02019?) by JR Hendershot about #switched-reluctance motors (“reluctance synchronous motors”) mentioning ABB’s new #SynRM product line (17–350kW), mentioning higher torque density than induction motors (which use the exact same stator design) and lower cost than permanent-magnet electrical machines as key advantages. Cites a price spike in neodymium as a key reason for interest in the area, which makes me think it’s from 02012 rather than 02019, when it was uploaded to YouTube. It actually says that “reluctance synchronous” motors are different from “switched reluctance” motors. Shows little webs in the stamping to hold the flux carriers together in the transversely laminated anisotropy rotor. Shows ABB’s plot of efficiency over its product line, ranging from 88% at 1kW rated power up to 97.5% at 700kW, because of the missing ohmic losses in the rotor relative to an induction motor. Boglietti and Pastorelli’s paper from 02008 reports 17% higher torque for an SRM (RSM) version of an existing induction motor. Shows some asterisk-shaped switched-reluctance rotors (using higher frequencies) and contrasts with RSMs’ trippy rotor design (using the same inverters as for an induction motor). Also has some nice electronics schematics. “The key to the improvements in efficiency and power factor lies in the inductance ratio or the saliency ratio in the d [direct] & q [quadrature] axes.”

JKCalhoun 1y ago

He's like the old "Amateur Scientist" column from Scientific American magazine come to YouTube.

bkraz 1y ago

I always enjoy seeing one of my videos on HN! Let me know if you have questions.

pierrekin 1y ago
Not strictly related to this video - sorry about that - but I have some ideas of how to improve the system you used to record arc welding in high quality. Do you still have the hardware? Does revisiting the project and using some signal processing to try and extract color images sound like fun? I would be excited to collaborate on this if you had energy for it!
- bkraz 1y ago
  You should definitely contact Kron Tech (makers of the system -- let me know if you want an introduction). I have some interesting image processing videos coming up -- nothing to do with color reconstruction, but that also sounds good. My project pipeline is pretty full, but I will let you know when I am adding new ideas.
  - pierrekin 1y ago
    Thank you for your kind offer to introduce.

daveguy 1y ago

It would be interesting to compare the iron nitride magnet sample with an just epoxy + iron filings. I would expect iron to have some area between the curves because iiuc iron is able to hold a magnetic charge.

bkraz 1y ago
I measured the pure iron powder as well. It shows no measurable area inside the BH curve, which at first seems incorrect since the textbook retentivity value for pure iron is fairly high. The textbook may be referring to a single iron magnetic domain. In a practical sample (even a solid piece of iron, let alone powder in epoxy), there are likely many magnetic domains that cancel each other out, and "soft iron" is used commercially for the very reason that is has extremely low retentivity in bulk.