5 ms·

openai native 4o image generation generates 4 fingers instead.

doubled112 1y ago
And a thumb? Or like The Simpsons?
vunderba 1y ago
Is that a joke? Because 4o image generation (assuming you click "Image Generate" which uses gpt-image-1) EASILY handles rendering hands with the proper number of fingers even without specifying something like that. If anything, it's actually MORE difficult to generate hands with an improper number of fingers. Apologies to Count Rugen. https://imgur.com/a/hIp5DQO https://imgur.com/a/hIp5DQO
- washadjeffmad 1y ago
  If you consider finger count to be the lowest bar, then it's still a problem. People just aren't generally creative enough to find the cracks. Think in terms of hands, their components, and their function, and test again. Be specific.
  - vunderba 1y ago
    So? My point wasn't that they were capable of EVERYTHING - it was addressing what looked like to me (and likely to any casual observer) factually incorrect information. You're also really talking to the wrong person about potential deficiencies in GenAI for images. I run an entire site where I compare a multitude of prompts I CREATED to explicitly test state of the art major generative image providers (Imagen4, gpt-image-1, Flux Kontext, etc.) - I'm all too aware of their shortcomings. https://genai-showdown.specr.net https://genai-showdown.specr.net
    - delusional 1y ago
      That's a really cool website. You should consider submitting it for show HN, I'm sure others would enjoy it as well.
      - johnisgood 1y ago
        I submitted it (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44281555 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44281555) as I have found it interesting, too. If author wants me to (in time), I will delete it so he can re-submit.
    - washadjeffmad 1y ago
      Didn't mean to wind you up! Totally wasn't my intent. Looking over your site, I feel like my point is pretty strongly reflected by your work, though. While models have been trained to deliver high-level impressions (with increasing attention to detailed problem domains), one-shot control is still relatively poor, and they lack the fundamental skill of a trained artist. There are chasms between what you think you're prompting, what the text encoder understands, and how the model interprets that input, with the resulting effect of a professional musician intentionally playing badly... hands not excepted. For instance, in "Mermaid Disciplinary Committee" on your site, every hand has a deformity or finger count inconsistency. In "Spheron", the hands have no variation and suffer from cross-subject cloning (even 4o - look at the shield-carrier). That's what I meant about creativity and being specific. Try prompting for three people holding up certain fingers on one or both hands. Start with the index, progress to pinky. Ask it to show you a hand gripping things, rotated in different orientations. Prompt for a hand with 3 fingers, then 6 fingers, then no fingers. Ask for gang signs or shadow puppets, pinching something, with fewer or extra digits. The illusion breaks down quickly. This is a space I'm working in, retraining text encoders and diffusion models to understand the same things first year arts students learn. With how limited and poisoned most models are, it's been a huge effort.
- kachapopopow 1y ago
  The tweet about gpt 4o image generation capabilities release had 4 fingers.
  - vunderba 1y ago
    I'd like to see that tweet if you have it. I also don't remember the intro page they put out having any such issue: https://openai.com/index/introducing-4o-image-generation/ https://openai.com/index/introducing-4o-image-generation/
    - wgjordan 1y ago
      Look at the hands in "selfie view of the photographer, as she turns around to high five him".
      - vunderba 1y ago
        Hmm, I agree it's not a good high-five - their hands aren't really centered against each other, but her raised right-hand is oriented at an angle where her thumb and index finger are kind of obscured since her pinky finger is closest to the camera.
        wgjordan 1y ago
        I thought the man's hand was either missing a pinky finger or had an abnormally short one. Here's another one, this tweeted image shows either six fingers or an abnormally large middle finger: https://x.com/OpenAI/status/1904602845221187829 https://x.com/OpenAI/status/1904602845221187829
        vunderba 1y ago
        Thanks for that one - yeah that one is definitely NOT great. That middle finger would have to be admiral ackbar sized to pass for a single digit. Reminds me of when Karpathy tweeted about the founding of an educational AI lab: https://x.com/karpathy/status/1813263734707790301 https://x.com/karpathy/status/1813263734707790301
- gus_massa 1y ago
  Nice, but isn't the pinky too big?

And a thumb? Or like The Simpsons?

Is that a joke? Because 4o image generation (assuming you click "Image Generate" which uses gpt-image-1) EASILY handles rendering hands with the proper number of fingers even without specifying something like that. If anything, it's actually MORE difficult to generate hands with an improper number of fingers. Apologies to Count Rugen. https://imgur.com/a/hIp5DQO https://imgur.com/a/hIp5DQO

washadjeffmad 1y ago
If you consider finger count to be the lowest bar, then it's still a problem. People just aren't generally creative enough to find the cracks. Think in terms of hands, their components, and their function, and test again. Be specific.
- vunderba 1y ago
  So? My point wasn't that they were capable of EVERYTHING - it was addressing what looked like to me (and likely to any casual observer) factually incorrect information. You're also really talking to the wrong person about potential deficiencies in GenAI for images. I run an entire site where I compare a multitude of prompts I CREATED to explicitly test state of the art major generative image providers (Imagen4, gpt-image-1, Flux Kontext, etc.) - I'm all too aware of their shortcomings. https://genai-showdown.specr.net https://genai-showdown.specr.net
  - delusional 1y ago
    That's a really cool website. You should consider submitting it for show HN, I'm sure others would enjoy it as well.
    - johnisgood 1y ago
      I submitted it (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44281555 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44281555) as I have found it interesting, too. If author wants me to (in time), I will delete it so he can re-submit.
  - washadjeffmad 1y ago
    Didn't mean to wind you up! Totally wasn't my intent. Looking over your site, I feel like my point is pretty strongly reflected by your work, though. While models have been trained to deliver high-level impressions (with increasing attention to detailed problem domains), one-shot control is still relatively poor, and they lack the fundamental skill of a trained artist. There are chasms between what you think you're prompting, what the text encoder understands, and how the model interprets that input, with the resulting effect of a professional musician intentionally playing badly... hands not excepted. For instance, in "Mermaid Disciplinary Committee" on your site, every hand has a deformity or finger count inconsistency. In "Spheron", the hands have no variation and suffer from cross-subject cloning (even 4o - look at the shield-carrier). That's what I meant about creativity and being specific. Try prompting for three people holding up certain fingers on one or both hands. Start with the index, progress to pinky. Ask it to show you a hand gripping things, rotated in different orientations. Prompt for a hand with 3 fingers, then 6 fingers, then no fingers. Ask for gang signs or shadow puppets, pinching something, with fewer or extra digits. The illusion breaks down quickly. This is a space I'm working in, retraining text encoders and diffusion models to understand the same things first year arts students learn. With how limited and poisoned most models are, it's been a huge effort.
kachapopopow 1y ago
The tweet about gpt 4o image generation capabilities release had 4 fingers.
- vunderba 1y ago
  I'd like to see that tweet if you have it. I also don't remember the intro page they put out having any such issue: https://openai.com/index/introducing-4o-image-generation/ https://openai.com/index/introducing-4o-image-generation/
  - wgjordan 1y ago
    Look at the hands in "selfie view of the photographer, as she turns around to high five him".
    - vunderba 1y ago
      Hmm, I agree it's not a good high-five - their hands aren't really centered against each other, but her raised right-hand is oriented at an angle where her thumb and index finger are kind of obscured since her pinky finger is closest to the camera.
      - wgjordan 1y ago
        I thought the man's hand was either missing a pinky finger or had an abnormally short one. Here's another one, this tweeted image shows either six fingers or an abnormally large middle finger: https://x.com/OpenAI/status/1904602845221187829 https://x.com/OpenAI/status/1904602845221187829
        vunderba 1y ago
        Thanks for that one - yeah that one is definitely NOT great. That middle finger would have to be admiral ackbar sized to pass for a single digit. Reminds me of when Karpathy tweeted about the founding of an educational AI lab: https://x.com/karpathy/status/1813263734707790301 https://x.com/karpathy/status/1813263734707790301
gus_massa 1y ago
Nice, but isn't the pinky too big?